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O/T EU Referendum
Posted by: Longsiders1882 (IP Logged)
Date: 22 February, 2016 10:52

Seems unlikely this won't be discussed one here - me and BC will no doubt trade blows over the coming weeks and months - so I figured having a single place to put them would enable those who don't want to read or take part to easily avoid it.

With that in mind please don't come on this thread and moan that me and/or others are moaning about politics. It's almost certainly going to get fractious at times.

Re: O/T EU Referendum
Posted by: Alfie (IP Logged)
Date: 22 February, 2016 10:59

IMO Only Brits living in Britain should be allowed to vote not people from the commonwealth and Southern Ireland .. Bloody ridiculous

Re: O/T EU Referendum
Posted by: BC2 (IP Logged)
Date: 22 February, 2016 11:02

Sorry LS, I've just kicked off on the Jungle Drums thread before seeing this, maybe the mods could transfer it ?

Re: O/T EU Referendum
Posted by: Brian O'Neil (IP Logged)
Date: 22 February, 2016 11:10

It seems very simple to me.Democracy....quite simply as part of the EU there is none and even the pretense is being eroded before our very eyes.It seems to me that very many people have been bought off by economic fear which if you look at the facts are entirely irrational and false.Each week we donate £385m to a group of countries in Europe and one of those recipients is France and surprisingly Holland is also one of them.Vote Leave but more importantly up to 23rd June reclaim our democracy and get involved.

Re: Jungle Drums in the GB Lunatic Asylum
Posted by: BC2 (IP Logged)
Date: 22 February, 2016 11:00

I don't trust the majority of our politicians Alfie, but at least I get the opportunity to have my say, to appoint them or remove them from office every five years.

Not so with the EU, their law-making body the EU Commission is not elected, they're appointed. I have no say in who these people are, nor how they are appointed, nor any way to remove them from office, yet they formulate the laws which we are all obliged to obey. And incidentally, these Commissioners, not content with their executive power, huge salaries and ridiculously generous pension rights, also are exempt from paying tax. So we can't hold them to account while they live tax free at our expense, very nice. Is it any wonder that the elite, the establishment, the Cameron's, Osbornes, Cleggs, Blairs and Browns of this world are desperate for us to remain on the gravy train, why on earth would they not be ?

But why on earth any ordinary person would want to continue contributing £55 million a day to this undemocratic, bloated, corrupt bureaucracy is way beyond my comprehension.

Re: Jungle Drums in the GB Lunatic Asylum
Posted by: Dave Thomas (IP Logged)
Date: 22 February, 2016 11:05

There arr arguements for and against

But mine are for leaving

£55million a day is what it costs us.
EU now is too big, too complex, too unwieldy,
At the end of the day the EU fanatics want just one single country.

plus the refugee/migrant crisis has shown it up to be the shambles that it is when the big problems arrive and real decisions.
it has shown that individual countries will always put their own interests first.

Safer in the EU... no thats NATO that keeps us safe.
Trade will continue quite happily. It's fearmongering that says it won't.
It will be like having a pair of handcuffs removed

And what other organisation has auditors that for something like 20 years has refused to sign off the accounts. We can only assume thats because they don't know where all the money goes.

And the directive that wants to standardise bloody oven gloves was the last straw in pointless meddling. We use tea towels in our house.

Had to buy a new riding hat for our daughter. She goes to riding for the disabled once a fortnight with a perfectly good hat that an elephant could stand on. But oh no the EU meddlers had to standardise riding hats. That cost us £85.

But at the end of the day its the £350million a week that we send to Brussels that gets my goat.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 22/02/2016 12:39 by Dave Thomas.

Re: O/T EU Referendum
Posted by: Longsiders1882 (IP Logged)
Date: 22 February, 2016 11:43

Democracy BON - do you believe we have one, regardless of the EU? It's an illusion of choice regardless of the EU mate. But also the money (which seems a common theme)? Have to query your idea that France and Holland are on the take. Most recent figures I could find (2012) show they both are net contributors - France more so than us?

So DT, it's about the money we send for you?

And for you BC it's the laws, like greater rights for workers, you object to? Or is it mainly the cash?

Re: O/T EU Referendum
Posted by: Longsiders1882 (IP Logged)
Date: 22 February, 2016 11:52

This link MAY be useful for comparing figures. I'm assuming it is accurate to be fair but it does allow to select any country and view their net contribution to the EU for a year:

http://www.money-go-round.eu/Country.aspx?id=UK

Re: O/T EU Referendum
Posted by: kaiapoi claret (IP Logged)
Date: 22 February, 2016 11:53

Quote:
Alfie
IMO Only Brits living in Britain should be allowed to vote not people from the commonwealth and Southern Ireland .. Bloody ridiculous
I agree I read somewhere you can vote if you have lived in another country for under 15 years We have the same here in NZ Kiwis living in uk can vote in elections every 3 years sometimes they overturn the vote on election night in some electorates Ive lived in NZ for 2 thirds of my life im retired i collect the NZ pension If id only just come to live in NZ then i think i should have the right to vote just incase i didnt like NZ and go back to UK to live

Re: O/T EU Referendum
Posted by: Longsiders1882 (IP Logged)
Date: 22 February, 2016 12:03

Quote:
kaiapoi claret
Quote:
Alfie
IMO Only Brits living in Britain should be allowed to vote not people from the commonwealth and Southern Ireland .. Bloody ridiculous
I agree I read somewhere you can vote if you have lived in another country for under 15 years We have the same here in NZ Kiwis living in uk can vote in elections every 3 years sometimes they overturn the vote on election night in some electorates Ive lived in NZ for 2 thirds of my life im retired i collect the NZ pension If id only just come to live in NZ then i think i should have the right to vote just incase i didnt like NZ and go back to UK to live

No way should anyone who has chosen to live in another country get a vote - mind you as far as I'm concerned if you chose to live in another country you should lose your citizenship so I guess I'm way out of step with mainstream. It only impacts on people who live here and it should be those people who vote.

Re: O/T EU Referendum
Posted by: soapylily (IP Logged)
Date: 22 February, 2016 12:29

This is going to be an interesting thread and I think there should be a Longside in/out poll running alongside it. Alfie ^%$%$# off! There, that should provide a high falutin' level of debate!

I spent 28 years ready to defend yours and Longsiders 1882s' rights to voice opinions with which I might disagree but (as in the Scottish referendum) why should British citizens born in Britain be denied the right to vote no matter where they reside on the planet, whilst naturalised citizens will have the right to vote? It does not only impact on those in the UK but the potentially hundreds of thousands who will return if Great Britain becomes an independent sovereign nation once again.

I became a political refugee from the EU under Bliar's leadership. As a British Sea Fisheries officer I saw at first hand the damage, environmental, humanitarian and economic which the EU (unelected, unaudited and a corrupt organisation from top to bottom full of vested nationalistic interests) wrought on just one area of UK policy.

Does anyone really think the UK Armed Forces would be so toothless today were it not for the European Security and Defense Initiative? Anyone who voted yes in 1975 should hang their heads in shame - the writing was already on the wall for those of us prepared to take the time to read it. If the EU final financial collapse occurs before the referendum, and it may well do so, there will be only one outcome.

Following the paper written by Mrs Boris on the hegemony of the EU Judiciary I would be keen to read Cheshire's thoughts on this thread.

Re: O/T EU Referendum
Posted by: BC2 (IP Logged)
Date: 22 February, 2016 13:39

Quote:
Longsiders1882

And for you BC it's the laws, like greater rights for workers, you object to? Or is it mainly the cash?

The laws are just one aspect of it LS, there are so many more. But it's not the laws in themselves, it's the fact that the lawmakers are unaccountable, I want the people of this country to have the right to elect the lawmakers, not have them foisted upon us by some faceless, unaccountable bureaucracy. If you had suggested this situation to people in this country 50 years ago, they'd have laughed in your face at the mere idea of it. But it's happened, it's crept up on us, almost un-noticed, by lies, deceit and subterfuge.

We've become dis-enfranched by stealth, with the connivance of our own governments and politicians we've lost the ability to govern ourselves, something millons of citizens of this country have given their lives for over the years. The only way to get back the right to self-governance is to leave, the EU will never give that power up.

As for laws governing worker's rights, if you want greater rights for workers then vote for a Labour government, it's called democracy, what's wrong with that ?

Re: O/T EU Referendum
Posted by: BC2 (IP Logged)
Date: 22 February, 2016 14:02

Quote:
Longsiders1882

No way should anyone who has chosen to live in another country get a vote - mind you as far as I'm concerned if you chose to live in another country you should lose your citizenship so I guess I'm way out of step with mainstream. It only impacts on people who live here and it should be those people who vote.

So LS, you think any Brit who to chooses lives in France, Belgium, Holland etc should be stripped of British citizenship, and should keep their nose out of any political debate/discussion/election/referendum impacting on the lives of those remaining in the UK. Well I don't agree with you but fair enough.

But then it seems you're happy to accept that any faceless, unaccountable, unelected French, Belgian or Dutch bureaucrat in Brussels can tell you what to do while you're living in England, can tell you how you will live your life in England, and you'll happily doff your cap, wag your tail, and say "Oui monsieur, je vais le faire".

Wow !!!

Re: O/T EU Referendum
Posted by: Foreverclaret (IP Logged)
Date: 22 February, 2016 14:06

As Soapy has suggested The Longside EU Referendum is now up as a sticky vote away.

Re: O/T EU Referendum
Posted by: Longsiders1882 (IP Logged)
Date: 22 February, 2016 14:35

Ah BC you raise a different question because we have a deal with other EU nations so it complicates things. Unfortunately whilst we remain in the EU I have to accept those people remain citizens - it doesn't mean I am happy about it.

Soap I never asked you to be 'prepared' to protect my rights and I suspect if you are honest you primarily did it for the money not the principle - maybe I'm wrong, just basing it on those I know who are in the forces.

Here's a proverbial cat to throw amongst the pigeons - which EU country do you think has the most people living and working outside its own borders?

Re: O/T EU Referendum
Posted by: Brian O'Neil (IP Logged)
Date: 22 February, 2016 15:12

It is obviously the UK and bringing that fact up opens a subject that should alarm us all.Wrong subject to make your case LS.I will state right now that even if it costs me financially, which I very much doubt it will, I will still vote to leave this failed, uncompetitive,corrosive and corrupt re-enactement of the soviet union named the EU.You are right about France but their contribution is declining.....Surprisingly even though rich Holland in 2013 took out roughly 2Billion more than it put in Bulgaria at the same time was a net contributor.Figures for the last couple of years during which UKIP had a landslide of MEP's, 4m votes at a general election, a Conservative Gov committed to a referendum and declines in the majority of EU economies it is unsurprising that facts and figures for the last couple of years are, putting it politely, difficult to come by. whilst the majority of the EU shrinks we in the have expanded.The consequence of which our net contributions have increased and will continue to do so.As most countries in the EU are financially dependant it would be no surprise for the gang in Brussels to come up with ever more imaginative schemes to steal our money.Labour and the socialists loves EU, after all it is financially Blair Brown on speed.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 22/02/2016 15:43 by Brian O'Neil.

Re: O/T EU Referendum
Posted by: BC2 (IP Logged)
Date: 22 February, 2016 15:47

It is complicated LS, I'm just trying and failing to understand where you're coming from.

It does seem that you would like to deny the right of British citizenship to anyone who moves abroad, yet are happy to defend the right of an unelected foreigner, who might well have never even set foot in this country, to tell British citizens what they must do in their own country. However much I try I can't even come close to reconciling those two contradictory views.

While it's not really relevant to the discussion, but since you brought the topic up, are you aware that many/most of the Brits living in Europe will still be paying income tax in this country, as I was when I lived in France. How do you propose to replace the tax revenue lost, as presumably you will also make these people tax exiles. Are you sure you've thought this through, or is it just a gut reaction, not a serious proposition ?

Re: O/T EU Referendum
Posted by: Longsiders1882 (IP Logged)
Date: 22 February, 2016 15:48

BON you have made it clear that 'democracy' is your thing. Right now I am not attempting to make a case for in or out - I've been clear I'm voting in and I've been honest about why. The arguments as such are wasted on me. I would though point out my view that in or out of the EU we have only the illusion of democracy

That doesn't mean I'm not interested in hearing them, for and against. My fear is so much of the against is inspired by sabre rattling, fuelled by massive dollops of misinformation.

Ultimately the money argument is just a shield for peoples real reasons for wanting out - if it wasn't we'd stop quoting that disingenuous 55 million a day figure (don't get me wrong it is still around 21 million a day but even this in perspective to say circa 400 million per day on the NHS - or 153 million a day paying people rent and giving them tax credits (i.e. subsidising wages!!!!) isn't as dreadful as painted).

Re: O/T EU Referendum
Posted by: Longsiders1882 (IP Logged)
Date: 22 February, 2016 15:59

Its a general comment BC, not even specific to this debate. However your statement is only true if those exiles are declaring earnings in the UK or in receipt of benefits I would imagine.

However I am intrigued for you to show me where I defended 'the right of an unelected foreigner, who might well have never set foot in this country, to tell British citizens what they must do ...'

I've been clear on my reasons for voting remain, I think I've been clear enough at least. I don't recall defending the rights of unelected foreigners to do anything but I do accept I said I feel foreigners who once happened to live here should not be entitled to decide whether we do or do not remain part of the EU. They are voting on something that doesn't impact on them. To me those of us impacted by this should be allowed to vote and decide our future.

Re: O/T EU Referendum
Posted by: soapylily (IP Logged)
Date: 22 February, 2016 18:43

Quote:
Longsiders1882

Soap I never asked you to be 'prepared' to protect my rights and I suspect if you are honest you primarily did it for the money not the principle
(Sm22) Oh yes we were rolling in it. Thats why Maggie eventually had to give HM Armed Forces a 30% plus pay rise. No one asks the forces to protect them but having lived in the former USSR and occasionally served in South Korea I have seen what the world may have looked like for the UK had not some of us been prepared to do so.
Quote:
Longsiders1882
Here's a proverbial cat to throw amongst the pigeons - which EU country do you think has the most people living and working outside its own borders?
A result of having quite recently the largest empire the world has ever seen, all before the EU was even dreamt of - difficult to imagine little ol' Britain being outside the EU, eh?

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