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Re: O/T EU Referendum
Posted by: soapylily (IP Logged)
Date: 21 May, 2016 08:14

Quote:
BC3
[b]And incidentally mate, none of the above is made up, that's what's going to happen according to allegedly respectable organisations and politicians.
Do not pass GO, go straight to the nearest Burton's window for mentioning 'respectable' and 'politicians' in the same phrase. (Sm128)

Re: O/T EU Referendum
Posted by: Dave Thomas (IP Logged)
Date: 21 May, 2016 09:00

I'd forgotten this little gem

The argument isn't whether Britain could survive outside the EU. Of course it could

Heck that was Cameron in Nov 2015

Re: O/T EU Referendum
Posted by: BC3 (IP Logged)
Date: 21 May, 2016 09:57

Quote:
soapylily
Quote:
BC3
[b]And incidentally mate, none of the above is made up, that's what's going to happen according to allegedly respectable organisations and politicians.
Do not pass GO, go straight to the nearest Burton's window for mentioning 'respectable' and 'politicians' in the same phrase. (Sm128)

The 'allegedly' refers to the politicians as well as the organisations soapy.(Sm14)

And talking of politicians I was intrigued to see the one-eyed Scottish lunatic re-surface last week, predicting doom and gloom should we leave the EU. This is the man who as Chancellor didn't see that last financial crisis coming, and thought he'd abolished boom and bust.

Re: O/T EU Referendum
Posted by: colinwaldron (IP Logged)
Date: 21 May, 2016 11:58

TTIP and the NHS, interesting read (all of it, not just the bits that suit one or the other argument)

[fullfact.org]



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Re: O/T EU Referendum
Posted by: Brian O'Neil (IP Logged)
Date: 21 May, 2016 12:18

Coach and horses would you not agree CW? The text of the final TTIP agreement is to be kept secret until it is signed and that is a fact not conjecture.The European, mainly German left wing groups have revealed the texts of the agreement which has been kept top secret. Any disputes arising from complaints by US corporations that their profits have been affected from denial of access to any part of our economy will be dealt with by secret courts adjudicated by other business figures.It defies belief that we would enter such a deal especially as we currently have free trade with the US.The fact that an unelected commission can decide our countries future is outrageous.Vote for democracy and Vote leave June23rd



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 22/05/2016 02:25 by Brian O'Neil.

Re: O/T EU Referendum
Posted by: colinwaldron (IP Logged)
Date: 21 May, 2016 12:32

Maybe I am too trusting or opponents to this are too cynical and that is the problem with this whole referendum question, do you accept that we can get our own way, as stated and have the NHS exempt or do you consider that the worse case scenario will most certainly occur and that we can't? the doom and gloom mongers would argue don't take the risk, but yopu can always make an argument in any situation for things going @#$%& up, can you not?



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Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 21/05/2016 12:33 by colinwaldron.

Re: O/T EU Referendum
Posted by: BC3 (IP Logged)
Date: 21 May, 2016 14:35

But these cynical opponents are not just Brexiteers, this is from the link put up,

"Not all of the exemptions the EU points to are necessarily robust. Many international lawyers think that the “governmental authority” exception doesn't exempt most public services, for instance."

Also the Labour Party is a cynical opponent, as are the Unions, many on the Remain side have serious reservations about TTIP and the NHS, it's not simply an Inner or Outer question.

Campaigners also point to legal advice commissioned by Unite, which concludes that “TTIP poses a real and serious risk to future [government] decision-making in respect of the NHS”.

Personally I'm probably as relaxed as you are about TTIP CW, but not because I believe we'll get any cast-iron exemption from it. I doubt we will, but having lived for 8 years in a country with a privatised health service and having found it superior in every way to the NHS, privatisation of the NHS holds no fears for me.

So really I'm not too bothered either way, I just find it ironic that so many want to Remain but are fearful of the consequences of giving the EU control over our lives, or in this case NHS privatisation. Seems to me the Remainians want their cake, and to eat it at the same time. It won't work like that, if we vote to remain, we're in for the duration and we'll be expected be good Europeans from now on and do as we're told, no more moaning, whingeing. cherry-picking and exemptions. We had our chance to leave but didn't take it, so now we'll have to go along with the rest of the EU countries, if Cameron ever goes back to ask for any more exemptions, any more special case pleading, he'll be very quickly reminded of the result of the referendum and very quickly told to sit down and shut up. And with every justification too.

We vote for the EU, we'll get the EU. Just don't say you weren't warned.

Re: O/T EU Referendum
Posted by: colinwaldron (IP Logged)
Date: 22 May, 2016 09:08

You see that is the problem with this whole Europe debate, people will always focus on the bits of anything that is posted to support the argument they are trying to make at the cost of any counter argument that might provide some balance. as I said it was an interesting read all of it not just the bits that suit one or the other argument, but the reply comes back again with the bits that support the out side only.

I could point out that it also includes:

"There’s no final text to look at, and the legal issues involved are complicated. It comes down to trust: the European Commission has consistently said that the terms it’s negotiating will keep the NHS safe from privatisation."

"The government’s position is that nothing in TTIP will affect its ability to make decisions on the NHS."

"The EU says that public health services won’t be affected by TTIP

The European Commission has said that it will include "tried and tested" provisions in TTIP that will ensure governments have freedom to organise their health services how they wish.

First, it wants the deal to include an exception for services provided "in the exercise of governmental authority".

The Commission also points to the statement that “public utilities”—including health services—can be provided by a state monopoly or can be limited to a certain number of private providers.

More specifically, it wants the agreement to say that EU countries reserve the right to exclude foreign companies from "health services which receive public funding or State support in any form and are therefore not considered to be privately funded".

And the Commission wants to include a statement that investment protection doesn’t affect the right of governments to pursue “legitimate policy objectives such as... public health”.

All these wordings are intended to allow EU governments to keep their health services public, or nationalise them in future.

The EU trade commissioner has written to the government saying that “there is no reason to fear either for the NHS as it stands today or for changes to the NHS in future, as a result of TTIP”.

In March 2015, EU and US negotiators released a joint statement saying that "US and EU trade agreements do not prevent governments... from providing or supporting services" in areas including health, and don't force the privatisation of public services".

"TTIP will probably have to be ratified by all member countries, as well as by the EU. The European Commission has said that “there will most likely be a number of elements that will require ratification by national parliaments”, and the government agrees."

As I said I could point those matters out, if I wanted to just quote one side of the case, but for the sake of balance I won't. (Sm14)

CW
The One Lets Stay In Longsider (Sm13)



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Re: O/T EU Referendum
Posted by: BC3 (IP Logged)
Date: 22 May, 2016 10:50

"You see that is the problem with this whole Europe debate, people will always focus on the bits of anything that is posted to support the argument they are trying to make at the cost of any counter argument that might provide some balance. as I said it was an interesting read all of it not just the bits that suit one or the other argument, but the reply comes back again with the bits that support the out side only."


With respect CW this misses my point. As I said before TTIP makes no difference to how I'll vote, I'm not trying to use it as an argument to vote Leave.

You put the link up to a Mirror article in which Labour MPs, SNP MPs and Union leaders were demanding that Cameron do something to exempt the NHS from the consequences of TTIP. So while you seem content to leave it to the EU to provide safeguards for the NHS, many Remainians clearly don't trust it to do so.

Now I share their concerns, I wouldn't trust the EU in this respect either, or on anything else regarding our national interest, which is why I want out. But can't you see the irony of those advocating we remain in the EU demanding action from Cameron to mitigate the damage an EU decision could cause.

I just wish they'd make their minds up, do they want to be run by a Brussels elite or not ? If they don't then vote leave, if they do then stop fretting about what the EU might do and just live with it.

At least your position is consistent and honourable, you're prepared to take anything they throw at us, fair enough that's your right, your decision. But on TTIP the Remainians are acting like Tory Euro-sceptics, they clearly don't trust the organisation they want to remain part of, cherry-picking the bits of the EU they like and rejecting those bits they don't.

And if they don't trust the EU, why should I ?

Re: O/T EU Referendum
Posted by: colinwaldron (IP Logged)
Date: 22 May, 2016 11:05

Your argument BC seems to go along the lines that it has to be all or nothing, now you know in life it is all about compromise and not everything is how we want it to be and we have to be prepared to accept stuff as part of an overall package, a bit like the curates egg and all our decisions on this referendum must surely be based on just that. If you and the outers get their way and we come out, who plots the course for the country from then on? Surely you aint going to be happy with either the left or right, as you have expressed on numerous occasions you don't trust any and so don't vote in elections, so where does that us? ungoverned? unhappy with then the outcome that coming out presents us with?

In formulating an "in" or "out" opinion/vote it is about balance I have formed mine, which is to stay and I also respect the views of those that wish to leave, it does seem that this debate has gone a full circle. (Sm13)



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Re: O/T EU Referendum
Posted by: soapylily (IP Logged)
Date: 22 May, 2016 13:05

Unfortunately CW the referendum is all or nothing. Its yes or no, there is no maybe vote.

So would you want the Clarets to be managed by 28 coaches all with an equal say and able to veto what the other 27 may want or by one manager?

One thing is certain if the vote is to leave then you will get a government made up of British citizens whose first duty is to serve the British people. Sure, you may be lucky and get a government that produces results like SD or unlucky and get an Alan Bond style cabinet but most likely something in between. Why would they not be better at governing Britin unshackled by EU restrictions? There are just too many vested interests at present:

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/1a/Supranational_European_Bodies-en.svg/600px-Supranational_European_Bodies-en.svg.png



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 22/05/2016 13:18 by soapylily.

Re: O/T EU Referendum
Posted by: colinwaldron (IP Logged)
Date: 22 May, 2016 13:29

And that is why soapy on balance I vote to stay, but thanks for the advice from the other side of the world 😉



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Re: O/T EU Referendum
Posted by: Dave Thomas (IP Logged)
Date: 22 May, 2016 19:11

Brexit the Movie... is worth a google... its over an hour long, but the first 15 mins that outlines how it actually works and the gravy train it is for the Brussels elite and how unanswerable and unaccountable they all are, just makes my skin crawl.

Re: O/T EU Referendum
Posted by: BC3 (IP Logged)
Date: 22 May, 2016 21:07

I actually contributed to the cost of making it. Really opens your eyes doesn't it Dave. You watch it and it's jaw-dropping, but you can see why so many of the elite will do anything to persuade us to continue paying for this corrupt, bloated bureaucracy. Gravy train doesn't even begin to describe this gigantic scam.

Re: O/T EU Referendum
Posted by: BC3 (IP Logged)
Date: 22 May, 2016 21:43

"Your argument BC seems to go along the lines that it has to be all or nothing, now you know in life it is all about compromise and not everything is how we want it to be and we have to be prepared to accept stuff as part of an overall package, a bit like the curates egg and all our decisions on this referendum must surely be based on just that."

Not all or nothing for me CW, it's a simple question of in or out. It's the Remainians who seem to think it's all or nothing concerning TTIP, as I've said I'm not too fussed about it one way or the other. I agree we need to make a decision on an overall package, whether on balance we'll be better off in or better off out, and it's not black and white, there are arguments on both sides. On balance I think we should leave for two main reasons. One, we should be able to hold to account the people who make the laws, who tell us how to live our lives, and in the EU we are unable to do that. Two, is that we need to be able to control the number of people coming to live work in the UK, and in the EU we can't. There are other reasons, but those two are so fundamental to a healthily functioning democracy that I continue to be bemused that people are prepared to accept it being otherwise on both issues.

"If you and the outers get their way and we come out, who plots the course for the country from then on?

Our democratically elected government.

"Surely you aint going to be happy with either the left or right, as you have expressed on numerous occasions you don't trust any and so don't vote in elections, so where does that us? ungoverned? unhappy with then the outcome that coming out presents us with?"

I don't think there is a single political party in this country that is able to govern competently, so I may well continue to withhold my vote, that will be my decision, my choice. I will be very happy if we leave, we might be governed by corrupt incompetents but they will be incompetents elected by the people of this country, and the people will be able to remove them from office should enough of them so wish. A far healthier and more tolerable situation then being run by 28 appointees in Brussels whom we have no power or right to consult, petition, question or remove from office.

Re: O/T EU Referendum
Posted by: Dave Thomas (IP Logged)
Date: 22 May, 2016 22:40

ColinW give it a watch... just the first 20 mins... see what you think... the huge shopping mall these incredibly well paid people have for their own personal use... the unaccountability... the 7 unelected presidents... the vast sums of money that prop up this regime... this is unashamed self-preserving elitism...

I absolutely loathe and detest it all.

Re: O/T EU Referendum
Posted by: kaiapoi claret (IP Logged)
Date: 23 May, 2016 00:13

I watched it Very Good thumbs downthumbs downthumbs down

Re: O/T EU Referendum
Posted by: fulledgelad (IP Logged)
Date: 23 May, 2016 01:42

That movie may only sway some of those who were undecided,not those who are adamant that staying in is best for them personally as opposed to the country as a whole.



Lest We Forget:
http://i25.tinypic.com/6rkd5g.jpg

Re: O/T EU Referendum
Posted by: Dave Thomas (IP Logged)
Date: 23 May, 2016 07:39

I just hope it helps sway the undecided... if enough people see it, £350million a week we send over to these parasites.

Re: O/T EU Referendum
Posted by: BC3 (IP Logged)
Date: 23 May, 2016 08:55

Not many will see it sadly, I'll happily donate £20 to the first nominated charity should it ever get shown on the BBC or C4, but it won't be.

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