Current Page: 13 of 34
Re: O/T EU Referendum
Posted by: Longsiders1882 (IP Logged)
Date: 23 May, 2016 09:07

Quote:
BC3
As this is about the governance of the UK then I think anyone with a UK passport should be allowed to vote, and no one else.
The situation is quite bizarre, there are over 3m EU citizens living in the UK, all eligible to vote in the referendum, there are around 1.2m Brits living abroad eligible to vote. That's over 4m votes for Remain, more than voted UKIP at the last election, so fiddling the eligible voter qualifications wipes out the entire UKIP vote for Leave at a stroke. Very clever, Leave has no chance.

So while expats and foreigners can vote on the future direction of my country, I wasn't allowed to vote in the Scottish independence referendum, which would have far more impact on my life than this referendum will have on any Italian, Australian or Irishman, who is being allowed to have his say. Work that one out.

Incidentally there was an EU Treaty referendum in France when I was living there in 2005. As an EU citizen living in France was I allowed to vote ? Don't be bloody silly, of course I wasn't.

Are you sure that is correct? My understanding is only British, commonwealth living in the UK, plus Gib and Malta?

Re: O/T EU Referendum
Posted by: BC3 (IP Logged)
Date: 23 May, 2016 09:43

Technically you're right LS, but if an EU citizen is registered to vote in the UK, as he has every right to be, then he can vote. They shouldn't officially, but voting controls are so lax in this country there is no way to stop them. Everyone registered to vote will receive a poll card, and are they going to check each individual to ascertain whether he's an EU citizen or not. Of course they're not.

Re: O/T EU Referendum
Posted by: Longsiders1882 (IP Logged)
Date: 23 May, 2016 10:15

Sorry BC but I ask again, are you sure that is how it will work? It's not so much that I doubt you but surely there is a control in place to stop this? If not wouldn't the leave camp be screaming from the roof tops?

Re: O/T EU Referendum
Posted by: BC3 (IP Logged)
Date: 23 May, 2016 11:51

From the Electoral Commission website,

"To be eligible to register to vote, a person must be:

• a British, Irish, EU or qualifying Commonwealth citizen"


So an EU, Irish or Commonwealth citizen is entitled to register and be on the electoral role.

And,

"If you are already registered to vote you will receive a poll card by 25 May 2016."

So all EU citizens who have registered to vote will receive a poll card and can vote. There will be no checks on whether you're an EU citizen or not, just turn up, give them your card and vote.

To be honest though what I posted originally is incorrect, EU citizens will not be 'eligible' to vote, what I should have put is that they will be able to vote. Also LS I'm possibly exaggerating the threat to the Leave campaign, as you point out they aren't making much fuss about this loophole and you'd expect they would. Two possible reasons, they don't want to draw attention to it, OR they know the number of EU citizens on the electoral role (I don't) and it isn't a worryingly large number.

Re: O/T EU Referendum
Posted by: Longsiders1882 (IP Logged)
Date: 23 May, 2016 16:15

Or we know they are EU citizens and so the system won't send them a card?

Re: O/T EU Referendum
Posted by: BC3 (IP Logged)
Date: 23 May, 2016 19:51

Can't say for sure LS, but I'd be amazed if they had that capability. This is from the Electoral Commission website,

Our recent review of electoral fraud in the UK concluded that polling station voting in Great Britain remains vulnerable to personation fraud. We recommend that there should be a requirement for voters across Great Britain to present an acceptable form of identification prior to being issued with a ballot paper and voting at the polling station.

Doesn't sound like a body that has much faith in it's ability to provide free and fair elections, or check and control the eligibility of voters in any election. And Tower Hamlets and the ongoing postal voting scam would suggest we're not that much further advanced than your average banana republic in this respect. I'd be 99% certain that any devious Froggy that wanted to vote in this election would be able to.

I do think I'm probably worrying too much about it though, the more I think about it, the more I doubt many of them would bother to vote, even though I'm sure they can.

Re: O/T EU Referendum
Posted by: Brian O'Neil (IP Logged)
Date: 24 May, 2016 02:55

As a landlord....bastar* you say, unlimited migration to the uk pushes up rents and I an cushty, but as a father and grandfather I say vote leave.There are more important things in life than money.Freedom and democracy is priceless.If you had a pound for every time Scumbags cameron and Osborne said the word you would be a pauper.Gravy trainers want in dsperately.My good lady wife, very sensible person who knows nothing very much said "Stay calm vote leave" Can't top that.

Re: O/T EU Referendum
Posted by: Longsiders1882 (IP Logged)
Date: 24 May, 2016 11:40

And that BON is my point about the Brexiters - stop arguing about money and start arguing about freedom, democracy, self governance. We fought a war against Germany, at great cost to our people, and I don't mean financial cost although it effectively bankrupted the country, to avoid being under the heel of another nation.

This is what they should talk about, not money, made up figures and forecasts. We survived for thousands of years on our own, tell people the prize is worth the price (if indeed there is a price).

I've made my selfish position clear but a bit of fire and brimstone, some Churchillian oration might sway even me.

Re: O/T EU Referendum
Posted by: Brian O'Neil (IP Logged)
Date: 24 May, 2016 23:21

LS I have every confidence that your character will ensure you vote leave, I also believe that you will prosper it is in you.If you were to be dishonest to yourself it could destroy your chutzpah.On a lighter note, I sometimes read a comment in an online newspaper that gives you a laugh.This in the Express describing Cameron and his antics.....Because he is stuck behind the sofa shouting scary things at old ladies.

Re: O/T EU Referendum
Posted by: BC2 (IP Logged)
Date: 25 May, 2016 00:36

From The Times,

"Jean-Claud Juncker, president of the European Commission, made clear at the weekend that Norbert Hofer would have been frozen out of EU decision making if he had been elected president of Austria."

Utter contempt for democracy, my dad spent six years in WW2 fighting c***s like Juncker. I've really heard enough now, if anyone votes to remain in an organisation that assumes the right to tell independent countries who they can or can't have as President, there's simply got to be something wrong with them.

Re: O/T EU Referendum
Posted by: Brian O'Neil (IP Logged)
Date: 25 May, 2016 01:22

As an intelligent pragmatic man BC your brain, like mine, is totally haggled.My fear is not for myself, I can handle these wanke**s without breaking stride but I fear for my descendants. I consistently argued on another thread about Thatcher that one begets another.The direction of the EU will give rise to an extreme right reaction.The left never ever learns.I sincerely hope blood is not let to resolve this.

Re: O/T EU Referendum
Posted by: That's Mr Kilby To You (IP Logged)
Date: 25 May, 2016 14:21

Why should we trust the economic arguments for remaining in the EU put forward by David Cameron and George Osbourne?

We have a Prime Minister who doesn’t know the difference between the deficit and the national debt and a Chancellor who has slashed public spending, but still cannot plug the gap between national income and expenditure. He has to borrow more money to balance the books, increasing the deficit even further and thus adding to the national debt that is accruing interest daily.

Even after being told how great the single market is and what a boost to the economy it gives us, export growth is static, national productivity is down and the unemployment rate is rising. The supposed economic miracle George Osbourne has performed is all smoke and mirrors produced by an overinflated housing market funded by cheap loans through quantitative easing. Once the Bank of England turns off the supply of cheap money to the high street banks, we are in for another financial crisis like 2008.

Re: O/T EU Referendum
Posted by: BC2 (IP Logged)
Date: 25 May, 2016 22:05

Dear me Mr Kilby, don't you realise that all the problems you highlight are caused by the uncertainty over the outcome of the EU referendum. Dave and George are on the BBC news every night spelling it all out for us, don't you have a TV set ?

Re: O/T EU Referendum
Posted by: Longsiders1882 (IP Logged)
Date: 25 May, 2016 22:28

This is doing the Facebook rounds:

If you're undecided you should read this 🤔
Posted anonymously

On June 23rd, I am expected to make one of the most important decisions in my life which could affect my children and grandchildren in a way I don’t even understand yet. I am an average guy with a family, a house, and a normal lifestyle. I am sort of Joe average. Some people have asked me recently about how I’m voting, mainly because they don’t know themselves and want another view or opinion. I’ve actually been quite interested in the opportunity to vote in the referendum and I’ve done some research and a lot of thinking and I know how I’m going to vote and why.

I am however, concerned about the broadcasting from our elected government. They also know what they want and why but we, the people, need our government to provide us with a balanced view so we, the people, can make our own mind up. For that to happen, we need to understand all the good points, and all the bad points. At the moment, I can understand why some people are gripped by fear that the world will end if we leave the EU.

But will it?

Well, I see 3 main areas, which I thought about. Political, economic and immigration.

Before I go any further, I have already accepted one thing. Any change will result in good things and not so good things. I can’t think of one example, which has changed, which hasn’t created some benefits and burdens.

Let’s get the easy one’s out of the way….

Political. – As a UK citizen, I want my laws determined by the MP’s we elected as a democracy should be. Our Lords are the regulators of the decisions made in the commons and I’m good with that. What I don’t want are laws imposed on me by people who weren’t elected and are trying to find a “One size fits all” solution to many different countries who all have different tolerances, expectations and cultures.

Of all of the imposed laws from the EU, I can live without a law that stipulates that cucumbers must not have a bend in excess of 10 degrees. Some of our politicians quite fancy a career in the EU after their own political career has come to and end in the UK and this is the reason why I think some of them are so keen to stay.

Economic – This is where I see, and accept, that things will be a little worse before they get better. Let’s get one thing clear though. Big business leaders only want one thing. More sales and bigger profits. That’s not wrong, it’s their job, and what shareholders expect. Quite simply, if the companies they’re running don’t make more money every year, they lose their job.

Imagine owning the only supermarket in a town where for the past 10 years, more and more people have come to live there and for the next 10 years, more and more people will arrive. If you owned that supermarket, you’d be rubbing your hands together. Now imagine that someone said that no more houses could be built and some people had to leave. You wouldn’t want that to happen so would disagree. And that’s what the impact will be, less people spending less money is not good for business. You can’t blame them for voting for Remain, but they’re only concerned about themselves.

I’ve also thought about the impact on house prices and rent. In 2000, I remember renting a massive house while I was in between house moves. The rent was £750 per month. Since the bulk addition of several European counties in 2004, rents have consistently increased beyond the rate of inflation. This is easy to understand, more people, not the equal number of more house increases competition for housing and increased rents. Increased rents mean better profits for landlords so people start to buy houses to rent out. Competition for houses increases which increases house prices.

And we all think this is great that the house some of us bought in the 90’s is now worth 3 times what we bought it for, we’re rich! But then I think of my children who can’t afford to buy a house now and I sometimes wonder whether they ever will. I was chatting to a guy at work last week who at the age of 32 had bought his first modest house with a 30 year mortgage. He was so pleased. But that doesn’t sit with me right. I bought my house (3 bed semi) when I was 22 with a 5% deposit and 3.5 times my salary. If the average salary is £22k, £77k doesn’t buy you anything now.

It might be an unpopular thought, but I want house prices to come down so my children can buy a 3 bed semi with a 5% deposit for 3.5 times their salary. And house prices will only come down if there is less competition and more houses built. I’m afraid you can’t achieve that by staying in the EU with an unlimited amount of potential people able to live and work here.

Also, on an economic front, there are too many people telling us that our economy will fall dramatically as we’ll have to negotiate new trade agreements with all the current EU countries. And let’s not forget Obama telling us all that we’ll be at the back of the queue with a trade deal with the USA.

Firstly, we’re a bigger importer than exporter, it’s always been that way. We buy more than we sell so therefore our buying power is more important than our selling power. For sure, some UK goods might be less attractive if import taxes are imposed on them from the EU if we leave but our customer is the world.

We have some of the most prestigious brands in the world. In no particular order, the one’s which come to mind are JCB, Rolls Royce, Burberry, Hotpoint, HSBC, Barclays, Tesco etc etc. I think we can confidently go global. Why do we want the EU to negotiate on our behalf?

And now for immigration. I have no idea why we’re all afraid to even bring up the subject but it does have a big impact and affects us all personally, socially and economically.

Over the past 12 years, since our immigration started to boom, I’ve met a lot of people who have moved to the UK to live and work. In general, I find the people I’ve met to be honest, hard working people with families who intend to make the most of the opportunity of living and working in the UK.

Our service industry is better for it, with many EU migrants choosing to work in many different sectors from coffee shops, to supermarkets. We’ve benefitted from many skills including the main building trades. Many trained nurses and doctors have joined our NHS. No doubt many more have arrived who have filled a skills gap we just don’t have and we, as a society have and are benefitting.

But there’s a problem that comes with this.

As a UK citizen, my personal belief is that the UK is the most attractive country in the EU. If you create a law that says that any citizen can freely choose where in the EU they can live and work, many will naturally choose to move to what they believe will give them the best opportunity to better themselves. Nothing wrong with that, it’s completely normal behaviour.

But if that country does not invest in infrastructure and services at the same rate of population growth two things happen. Things go up in price e.g. houses. And services become overstreched e.g. Doctors, schools, hospitals, roads etc.

The other thing I have an issue with is the type of immigration we have. I am absolutely convinced that we need immigration to thrive and prosper. Not just to ensure we have the right skills but also to make our society richer.

OK, so I can have my car hand washed for £3 just about anywhere now but how many unskilled people do we really need? I don’t think we need any. We have around 2 million of them sitting at home most days looking for a job. The broader problem is that we have created a society that believes not working is a choice and if they can’t be an instant celebrity, they refuse to work for minimum wage. We could solve that problem if we really wanted to.

I also see communities within communities. There are street’s I walk down now that I used to walk down 12 years ago where I only ever hear foreign languages being spoken and European shops selling European goods to European people. That doesn’t feel like an integrated society and I don’t really like it.

I want immigration, but I want to attract people from all over the world who have skills we need and who can add value to the place I live and work. I want those people to choose to come here because they like the values we live by, and want to be part of it.

I also don’t like the laws which are imposed on us that says we have to pay all EU immigrants the same social security benefits as UK citizens when we have no control over where that money is spent. At least the 2 million people sitting at home claiming job seekers allowance are spending that money here, benefitting our own economy but I can’t get my head around how a working father from the EU can claim working families tax credits, family allowance, income support and send as much back to his family in his native country as he chooses. When the minimum wage in the UK is 10 times higher than some eastern European countries and benefits are higher, how can we allow that money to be used in another economy where the cost of living is a fraction of the UK?

Imagine being a call handler in a call centre, a pretty average job on £18k to £20k a year. Now imagine another country you could move to, to do the same job for £200k a year. It’s an opportunity not to be missed. You’d live as cheaply as possible and send every spare penny home.

There are many people who are doing just that in the UAE. But the UAE are a growing country who need and want our skills. They’ve already stated to create laws themselves to ensure emirate people are at the front of the queue for jobs and skills. And there’s no hand outs or public services, everything is private sector and when you have no work, it’s goodbye.

I completely understand why Churchill had his vision for a “United States of Europe” after world war two. When created, the common market was brilliant and has served us well over the decades. But nothing lasts forever and things change.

I don’t remember agreeing to or voting for all the things which have been imposed on me. And I certainly don’t like what’s ahead of me either.

So on balance I’m voting to leave the EU. I accept it will have an economic impact. My house may reduce in value, some people may lose their jobs, the £ may fall in value so holidays might cost a bit more.

But if my children can buy a house and pay off a mortgage within their working life, if their children can go to a school that they choose, if I can get an appointment at the doctors or hospital treatment and not sit in hours of traffic every day then I’ll be happy with that.

And in the future, when the UK is back to being the greatest country in the world that attracts the most talented people from all over the world who create the industries and brands that create job opportunities for the future generations, I can look back and feel that I did the right thing.

#VoteOut #Remain #Brexit

Anon.


No idea if it's genuine but some good points simply made either way

Re: O/T EU Referendum
Posted by: BC2 (IP Logged)
Date: 25 May, 2016 23:21

It would be interesting if someone, anyone, could put up a cogent argument for staying in. It hasn't happened on this thread, the two idiots running the country clearly have no intention of doing it, the leader of the Labour Party won't because his heart isn't really in it, so we're left with cretinous economic forecasts and scaremongering.

Still it seems to be working if the polls are to be believed, which doesn't say much for the intellectual capacity of a lot of my fellow countrymen, if they're falling for the ludicrous drivel they're being fed by the Remainian troughers.

Re: O/T EU Referendum
Posted by: colinwaldron (IP Logged)
Date: 26 May, 2016 09:24

I like the word cogent, it has a nice ring to it(Sm13) i was so impressed by it, that I looked it up in my dictionary; it said "forcible, convincing" and I suppose when as we have on here 99% of the opinion and content "forcing" home the "out" message that the "remain" message is bound to be "unconvincing".

So as a word "cogent" is rightly applied but not in the context that some may suggest and as I seem to be the sole protagonist of the "remain" view on here and my intellectual capacity may be questioned, I will try in a "cogent" way to reinforce what "intellectual capacity" I may have and provide some much needed balance to the debate. I did very early on in this thread set out my thoughts on why I would want to remain, obviously they have not been considered to be a "cogent" argument, but then I have set out the massive force on here for an "out" vote, so I am not suprised that has been dismissed.

Anyway heres one to keep the home fires burning.(Sm13)

[www.dailymail.co.uk]



http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v667/Turfite/colsig.jpg


.............
"Say no to the car scrappage scheme"
Ex Aintree Naps Champion
Ex Naps Champion
Ex Cheltenham Naps Champion

Re: O/T EU Referendum
Posted by: Longsiders1882 (IP Logged)
Date: 26 May, 2016 11:04

I heard theo paphitis talking briefly this morning - thought his commentary had a reasonable balance.

He's plumping stay however he put forward a really simple analysis of the economic impact, coming down on the short term upset, no issue mid to long term. He also made some really good points about immigration, for and against.

Re: O/T EU Referendum
Posted by: colinwaldron (IP Logged)
Date: 26 May, 2016 11:15

I think balance is what this whole Euro debate has lacked, wherever you turn to read about it, not just on here but in the news on TV, its almost become another "spin" contest for not only politicians but for any bod who wants to pontificate on what may or may not happen if we stay or come out; with the ultimate deterent being "well you'll be sorry if it goes your way" and " don't come crying to me when it all goes wrong" when the truth is we don't really know which way things could go whichever way the coin lands.

Balance, now theres another word I like (Sm13)



http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v667/Turfite/colsig.jpg


.............
"Say no to the car scrappage scheme"
Ex Aintree Naps Champion
Ex Naps Champion
Ex Cheltenham Naps Champion

Re: O/T EU Referendum
Posted by: Longsiders1882 (IP Logged)
Date: 26 May, 2016 12:24

Think I have mis represented him - he's not decided himself which way to vote

Re: O/T EU Referendum
Posted by: That's Mr Kilby To You (IP Logged)
Date: 26 May, 2016 14:30

Quote:
BC2
Dear me Mr Kilby, don't you realise that all the problems you highlight are caused by the uncertainty over the outcome of the EU referendum. Dave and George are on the BBC news every night spelling it all out for us, don't you have a TV set ?

I remember last May during the General Election, that the markets were in turmoil and the Pound was weakening against the Dollar and Euro due to the uncertainty of the result. Obviously the solution is not to bother with any kind of elections in the future. We could have 28 Commissioners to run the country like the EU, made up of David Cameron, George Osbourne and another 26 old Etonians.

Current Page: 13 of 34
Sorry, only registered users may post in this forum.
We record all IP addresses on the Sportnetwork message boards which may be required by the authorities in case of defamatory or abusive comment. We seek to monitor the Message Boards at regular intervals. We do not associate Sportnetwork with any of the comments and do not take responsibility for any statements or opinions expressed on the Message Boards. If you have any cause for concern over any material posted here please let us know as soon as possible by e-mailing abuse@sportnetwork.net