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Re: O/T EU Referendum
Posted by: Longsiders1882 (IP Logged)
Date: 26 May, 2016 14:50

Quote:
That's Mr Kilby To You
Quote:
BC2
Dear me Mr Kilby, don't you realise that all the problems you highlight are caused by the uncertainty over the outcome of the EU referendum. Dave and George are on the BBC news every night spelling it all out for us, don't you have a TV set ?

I remember last May during the General Election, that the markets were in turmoil and the Pound was weakening against the Dollar and Euro due to the uncertainty of the result. Obviously the solution is not to bother with any kind of elections in the future. We could have 28 Commissioners to run the country like the EU, made up of David Cameron, George Osbourne and another 26 old Etonians.

Kind of sounds like what we already have - well except we elect the old Etonians but the outcome is the same ... the illusion of democracy.

Re: O/T EU Referendum
Posted by: BC2 (IP Logged)
Date: 26 May, 2016 19:18

Aye, it's certainly a warped form of democracy LS when 1.4m people vote for the SNP and they get 56 MPs, while the 3.9m that voted for UKIP get just the one. Still it is better than the EU system where an unelected buraeucrat tells an entire country he'll negate their democratic decision if it doesn't suit him and his organisation.

Juncker's threat to Austria comes just a week after Bojo caused uproar in the 'progressive' lefties bible the Guardian, and on the totally unbiased and impartial BBC, when he compared the EU's ambitions to run Europe with those of Hitler. Juncker provided incontrovertible evidence that Boris wasn't making it up, even starting on the same country Adolf chose, which is probably why, search as I might, I could find no reporting of Juncker's threat on either the Guardian or BBC websites. Just bury your head in the sand, pretend he never said it and vote to remain. The progressive left eh, that great herd of independent minds, pathetic.

Re: O/T EU Referendum
Posted by: soapylily (IP Logged)
Date: 26 May, 2016 19:53

Colin Waldron put a link up to a Max Hastings article -

Max Hastings doesn't appear at all cogent. Being anti-Boris isn't much of a reason to vote remain. "As a citizen, I am willing to give the British Government, and its support for the EU, just one more chance". There is absolutely no reason to think there will be another referendum so its not one more chance its the last chance saloon. Given Max Hasting's intellect I was really surprised at the level his arguments were pitched at.
"Since a majority of those determined to Leave will vote that way because they yearn to seal our borders, if they prevail I suspect they will experience disappointment and frustration" oh well then Max lets not bother at all eh? What a sad defeatist.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 26/05/2016 19:55 by soapylily.

Re: O/T EU Referendum
Posted by: BC2 (IP Logged)
Date: 26 May, 2016 22:07

And like Cameron and Osborne a liar too. No one one on the Leave side has said anything about sealing our borders.

Re: O/T EU Referendum
Posted by: colinwaldron (IP Logged)
Date: 27 May, 2016 09:09

Soapy, "Cogent" is history the new word on the block is "Balance"(Sm14)



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Re: O/T EU Referendum
Posted by: BC2 (IP Logged)
Date: 27 May, 2016 12:44

Instead of wasting your time looking up what a cogent argument is, why not try putting one up in support of staying in the EU ? In over 30 posts on the subject you haven't done it yet, although you did mention you felt we were safer in the EU, but is that it ?

Re: O/T EU Referendum
Posted by: colinwaldron (IP Logged)
Date: 27 May, 2016 14:35

Ouch! has that touched a nerve? I have set out my reasons, they ain't designed to convince you to change yours, unlike you seem to think that yours are 😉 so if they ain't good enough for you, tough! I will tell you what though; should the decision be to come out and as a result the whole economy, security and migration issues go @#$%& up all you prophets of doom by voting to remain will have a lot to answer for. So you vote your way and don't try to tell me how how I should vote ☺



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Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 27/05/2016 14:36 by colinwaldron.

Re: O/T EU Referendum
Posted by: BC2 (IP Logged)
Date: 28 May, 2016 03:52

Quote:
colinwaldron
and don't try to tell me how how I should vote ☺

I didn't tell you how you should vote, I wouldn't waste my time, the loony left are entirely predictable and will all vote the same way, no amount of evidence will sway that great herd of independent minds. I did however ask if you could put up a cogent argument for Remain, clearly you can't, but that's no surprise, neither can anyone else.

Re: O/T EU Referendum
Posted by: fulledgelad (IP Logged)
Date: 28 May, 2016 06:37

I thought from the start of this thread things could get a bit heated,
Might get interesting now (Sm151)



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Re: O/T EU Referendum
Posted by: BC2 (IP Logged)
Date: 28 May, 2016 13:19

Not heated at all FL, all I would like is for someone to put up a cogent argument for staying in the EU. Just to provide a bit of balance, nothing contentious about that request is there, not too much to ask is it ?

Re: O/T EU Referendum
Posted by: colinwaldron (IP Logged)
Date: 28 May, 2016 13:33

No doubt these won't be good enough either(Sm14)

[www.proeuropa.org.uk]



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Re: O/T EU Referendum
Posted by: Longsiders1882 (IP Logged)
Date: 28 May, 2016 14:30

I can't say I've seen a cogent argument for leaving either BC

Re: O/T EU Referendum
Posted by: colinwaldron (IP Logged)
Date: 28 May, 2016 14:49

Cogent is like beauty longsiders, it is in the eye of the beholder 😚



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Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 28/05/2016 14:50 by colinwaldron.

Re: O/T EU Referendum
Posted by: BC2 (IP Logged)
Date: 28 May, 2016 19:19

Quote:
Longsiders1882
I can't say I've seen a cogent argument for leaving either BC

Then let me put that right LS.(Sm14) There are three main reasons why I think we should leave.

1) Sovereignty, see my posts 22nd Feb, 11.00 and 13.39

2) Security, see 24th Feb, 22.06

3) Our inability to control immigration and thus population growth, see 11th Mar, 10.11

Please feel free to point out where you might disagree or where you think I'm mistaken or just plain wrong. I'm quite happy to have my views challenged, and if if/when you do I promise I won't get precious, sulk or threaten to take my bat home. I'm open to argument, l'm open to persuasion and even at this late stage I could change my mind. All unlike some on this msgboard

Re: O/T EU Referendum
Posted by: Longsiders1882 (IP Logged)
Date: 28 May, 2016 21:47

Point 3 - most recent immigration figure is net 300k - give or take a percentage half of that was non EU - or what we could control and still allowed those migrants.

I'd agree on one but it's not a cogent argument, it's an emotional one.

Re: O/T EU Referendum
Posted by: BC2 (IP Logged)
Date: 28 May, 2016 23:03

On immigration the official figures are widely accepted to be unreliable, the number of NI numbers issued far exceeds the number of people officially counted in. We can control non EU immigration but not EU immigration which is discriminatory, and a ridiculous situation for any country to tolerate, especially one whose infrastructure is as close to collapse due to sheer weight of numbers as ours is.

The right of a country to be self-governing is nothing to do with emotion. If a country doesn't govern itself then it's not a country at all, it's a vassal state of whoever does govern it. I can't think of a more cogent argument for leaving the EU than to get back the right to self-government, the right and ability to hold those who make the laws we have to live by to account.

Re: O/T EU Referendum
Posted by: BC2 (IP Logged)
Date: 28 May, 2016 23:41

Quote:
colinwaldron
No doubt these won't be good enough either(Sm14) U
[www.proeuropa.org.uk]

One 1 and 2, I see the number of jobs has increased from an original 3m to 3.5m, but at least they're no longer claiming those jobs would be lost, simply that they're linked to trade with the EU which is probably true enough.

This would only be problematic should we cease to trade with EU countries and this, despite the Remainians scaremongering, simply isn't going to happen. The most recent trade figures I can find showed the value of our exports to EU countries in March this year was £12 billion, we imported £20.2 billion from them. So if we have 3.5m jobs linked to trade with the EU, then they must have around 6m jobs linked to trade with us, in which case it's self-evident that it's even more important to the EU than to us that trade between us continues. And single market or not, trade treaties or not, it will.

The EU'S share of global trade is falling, it's % of global GDP is falling, since 2000 it has grown at just one third of the global average, since 2008 we have traded more with the rest of the world than the EU. Quite simply the EU is becoming progressively less and less important to us as at trading partner.

Anyway I'm on my hols, it 7pm, it's still 90 and the barby needs firing up, I'll have a look at the rest of it some other time.

Re: O/T EU Referendum
Posted by: Brian O'Neil (IP Logged)
Date: 29 May, 2016 01:03

Cogent.......my interpretation of it's meaning is more enlightening than the crude definition of a dictionary.Cogent can only have force in debate or argument if those involved in debate have the sane fundamental values.It is quite evident that is not the case.For me it comes down to how you value democracy and whether you will accept a price for relinquishing it.........some seem willing to sell what our forefathers fought for at quite a low price, in fact a pittance.Democracy mmmmmmm seems to me that many people do not value what they have not earned or paid for.Cogent depends on common values and this debate demonstrates fundamental irreconcilable differences.I am clear in mind of the consequences and benefits of leaving the EU antidemocratic project and in that I have no hesitation to vote leave.

Re: O/T EU Referendum
Posted by: soapylily (IP Logged)
Date: 29 May, 2016 01:38

Quote:
colinwaldron
I will tell you what though; should the decision be to come out and as a result the whole economy, security and migration issues go @#$%& up all you prophets of doom by voting to remain will have a lot to answer for.

CW - With all the quantitative easing, low interest rates, almost deflation and an inability to reduce the deficit or national debt has the economy not already gone nipples upwards?"
As someone who still holds a commission in the RN I have witnessed the decline in UK national security partly due to the influence of ESDI and the growth of the EU's uncalled for influence in security matters. I can assure you UK PLC is nowhere near as secure in defence terms as it was in the early 70s and it is blindingly obvious the EU has and still is royally screwing up on the migration issue. It simply has no effective policy solutions in that area.

So how much worse could BREXIT really make things?

Re: O/T EU Referendum
Posted by: colinwaldron (IP Logged)
Date: 29 May, 2016 06:16

So how does leaving make it better?



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