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What Ox said is proof that Wenger laid back style of management isn't suitable for Gen Y players
Posted by: litmus (IP Logged)
Date: 17 January, 2018 05:25

The Ox has said it. Klopp puts more pressure , gives him more instructions, more responsibility.

Wenger has a more laid back style of letting the players play. Lee Dixon told of the story of their first day of training with Wenger, they just jogged a few rounds and then thats it for training. When Dixon said "boss, we are not ready", Wenger told them that don't worry, you guys are ready. He lets them figure it out on the field, and it worked because they were fighters who knew what they each had to do.

That is why he could get the best of the players in those years. They were independent, strong players. The Adams, the Dixons, Keown, Vieira, Henry. These players took the game by the scruff of the neck and knew what they had to do to win games, and know what to do in games, especially in tough games.

The problem with our current crop of players is that they don't have this strength. You guys see it. The Bournemouth game is evident of this. When the going gets tough, they all seem like they don't know what to do, headless chickens, each and every one of them. All looking at each other. The lack of a strong, natural leader on the field further accentuates the problem. Only Jack seemed like he knew what he wanted to do.

This is all true, players this days are unlike AW early years. Anyone who has Gen Y'ers working for them can probably understand this. They do work properly when you give them specific instructions and bite their head off. Otherwise they will spend their time jabbing at the water fountain and on instagram.

That's why he could succeed then but not now.

Re: What Ox said is proof that Wenger laid back style of management isn't suitable for Gen Y players
Posted by: CazOnARola (IP Logged)
Date: 17 January, 2018 10:12

Agreed. I said the same things on a different thread.

Previous generations actually had shackles that they had to break. They had the potential and were willing to work hard but need more positive reinforcement then anything else.

Gen y s aren't all spoiled brats but football does have more money and your path esp if you are English is easier compared to others.

Re: What Ox said is proof that Wenger laid back style of management isn't suitable for Gen Y players
Posted by: SandyB (IP Logged)
Date: 17 January, 2018 14:20

Fabregas said the same stuff when he was at Arsenal n Spanish media ask him to compare between Wenger n Euro n WC winning manager Del Bosque. He said, Wenger doesn't tell them exactly what he expects from him rather gives the freedom where as Del Bosque wants every player to strictly adhere to their role otherwise you are not in the team.
Basically it all suggests Wenger's glory days were more like fluke n after that it's fraud! (Sm6)

Re: What Ox said is proof that Wenger laid back style of management isn't suitable for Gen Y players
Posted by: Sanogone (IP Logged)
Date: 17 January, 2018 15:07

Wenger epitomises the saying “taking the glory from another mans hard work.”

Re: What Ox said is proof that Wenger laid back style of management isn't suitable for Gen Y players
Posted by: Bergmars (IP Logged)
Date: 17 January, 2018 16:54

It's been obvious for years and scandalous considering his wages



Under new managment

Re: What Ox said is proof that Wenger laid back style of management isn't suitable for Gen Y players
Posted by: Gunners R Us (IP Logged)
Date: 17 January, 2018 17:21

We know this. Players are not micro-managed nor given real specific roles.

If you're a young player with loads of natural talent, playing under wenger will be great because he will give you the freedom to learn and express yourself.

However, when you've @#$%& got a midfield of xhaka and ramsey someone has to @#$%& give them roles and tell them how to play that @#$%& midfield. For @#$%& sake.

Around 7-10 years ago when players left Arsenal they somewhat struggled, having to play in a system or asked to do things not asked of them at Arsenal. They didn't have the freedom they once enjoyed.

However, I think the overall level of coaching has improved drastically this decade. Everything is coached at a micro-level, with systems adapted to bring the best out of particular attributes of players.

You're not getting this at Arsenal with Wenger in charge. It's actually one of the reasons why I wouldn't want Ancelotti in charge - he will be exactly the same.

Re: What Ox said is proof that Wenger laid back style of management isn't suitable for Gen Y players
Posted by: MattySadler (IP Logged)
Date: 17 January, 2018 17:37

Confirmed what we've all thought/ known all along.

Re: What Ox said is proof that Wenger laid back style of management isn't suitable for Gen Y players
Posted by: Shane (IP Logged)
Date: 17 January, 2018 18:31

I think the fact that Oxlade-Chamberlain doesn't put pressure on himself is even more damning and illustrative of why he'll never maximise his true potential. Lest we forget we've seen this type of buzz around him before, about 15 different times in fact, and each time he stagnated instead of kicking on.

It's my personal belief that this is down to Oxlade-Chamberlain's personality and a lack of appetite more than anything else, but I guess time will tell whether Klopp can get the best out of him on a regular basis. I'll doff my cap to both if he does because there's something really sad about unfulfilled potential in anything.

Re: What Ox said is proof that Wenger laid back style of management isn't suitable for Gen Y players
Posted by: Bergmars (IP Logged)
Date: 17 January, 2018 19:23

I'd agree Shane but along with self motivation there has to be organisation from managment/ coaches.
You can't leave players to do their own thing many managers have stated that players will blame anything or anyone rather than themselves.
Roy Hodgson and David Moyes stand as proof that given the same players but by moulding them you can change results.
No team can be a success without defensive stability and organisation that's where you start building, you earn the right to play.



Under new managment

Re: What Ox said is proof that Wenger laid back style of management isn't suitable for Gen Y players
Posted by: SandyB (IP Logged)
Date: 17 January, 2018 20:17

Shano is famous for eating sox on internet, he ate sox numerous times saying stuff like Guardiola needs to prove when he left Barca or about Sala about numerous other players n manager the latest was about Klopp his very decent manager comment when Klopp saved Lord Wenger's invincible record. I hate to say but I'd agree with GS1 what he calls shano doesn't understand football much, actually they don't play the game that much in Ireland so can't really blame him or eduardo or that Julien guy they are all the same [:wor kid:].. short story short Oxlade Chamberlain is already a different footballer now n playing to his full potential, shano still living in Wenger la la land, nevermind!!
Let's talk about alien now, mate, shall we??

Re: What Ox said is proof that Wenger laid back style of management isn't suitable for Gen Y players
Posted by: CazOnARola (IP Logged)
Date: 18 January, 2018 04:52

Ox's full potential is just running and shooting. It has always been that. He never seemed to have the intelligence of players like hazard, forget play makers like cescetc.

Klopps system doesn't need you to be intelligent.
The way klopp teams are setup, the front have to be agile and very good defensively. His brand of football is to win the ball back from the opposition defenders, keeper and DM and releasing the forward closest to you who then either scores himself or passes to the man on the far post.

Of course the beauty is the training and drilling to cut down the passing channels of the opposition.

He typically has only one player like gotze or coutinho who is supposed to be intelligent and make good decisions 90%of the time.

Even that isn't the main part of his job. The main part is to press with high energy for 90 min.

Of course this requires a lot of physical exertions and pacey ppl. So how main requirements are pace and stamina.

Ox is a perfect player for klopp

Re: What Ox said is proof that Wenger laid back style of management isn't suitable for Gen Y players
Posted by: Shane (IP Logged)
Date: 18 January, 2018 06:02

Quote:
SandyB
Shano is famous for eating sox on internet, he ate sox numerous times saying stuff like Guardiola needs to prove when he left Barca or about Sala about numerous other players n manager the latest was about Klopp his very decent manager comment when Klopp saved Lord Wenger's invincible record. I hate to say but I'd agree with GS1 what he calls shano doesn't understand football much, actually they don't play the game that much in Ireland so can't really blame him or eduardo or that Julien guy they are all the same [:wor kid:].. short story short Oxlade Chamberlain is already a different footballer now n playing to his full potential, shano still living in Wenger la la land, nevermind!!
Let's talk about alien now, mate, shall we??

He's been a first-team regular for less than a month Sandy, and I don't believe you watch them on a regular basis (didn't you literally admit this the other day?) so what are you basing your opinion on? Nothing.

You've been swept away by the wave of hype, whereas I'm sat on the sand, using my brain and trying to figure out whether this is the first wave of many that Oxlade-Chamberlain causes, or whether a period of calm will now come about.

The latter is what happened at Arsenal time and time again, with every ascent followed by a swift and lengthy stagnation, so it's perfectly sensible to ask whether this will happen again rather than jump to conclusions that Wenger and his methods have been holding him back this whole time.

If I'm wrong, who gives a f*ck. Not me. I revel in my failed predictions and learn from them. Didn't I bump a Kevin de Bruyne thread recently and quote a post where I predicted him to flop in England? You, on the other hand, do not learn from your failed predictions and you're also too stubborn to admit when they're even failed - does Harry Kane ring a bell?

So, stubborness, delusions, ego, and failure to learn from mistakes. You have a lot in common with Wenger pal (Sm6).

Re: What Ox said is proof that Wenger laid back style of management isn't suitable for Gen Y players
Posted by: litmus (IP Logged)
Date: 18 January, 2018 06:39

Ox had a few decent games, and scored like 2 goals. I don't think that what we saw against City is what we have not seen before.

If you remember, Ox also scored against Liverpool for us when we lost our opening game last season, so he has always had that. But just like Walcott, he can be really good or really poor, and not always had any influence in the game. The path to being a great player is to consistently doing it, influencing games 90 percent of the time. Until he does that he can't be considered better at Liverpool.

So, while I am sad that Ox couldn't reach his true potential with us, I don't begrudge him if he can reach his full potential elsewhere. As long as its not at Man U.

But actually, the thread is more about Wenger and his easy management style. I work with a lot of Gen Ys staff under me over the 20 years so I can see this as one of the biggest reason for his recent failings. This generation is very different. He had success with players like Henry who grew up playing on the streets with much older kids and getting his ass kicked by them but the same methods didnt work with Walcott and his team of "son-in-laws" as Graeme Souness put it.

So its not entirely Wenger's fault, he either doesn't realise it, or maybe too stubborn to accept it. Wait a minute, it is his fault then.

Re: What Ox said is proof that Wenger laid back style of management isn't suitable for Gen Y players
Posted by: Shane (IP Logged)
Date: 18 January, 2018 07:36

It's not something we haven't seen before. That's why it makes no sense for anyone to claim definitively that Oxlade-Chamberlain is on the brink of fulfilling his potential under Jurgen Klopp. He's been in this situation before. As Matty will tell you, it's been false dawn after false dawn.

If he kicks on and emerges as a big player for Liverpool on a regular basis then ah salute, it exposes Wenger in a big way, but if not then it suggests that Oxlade-Chamberlain's personality has been the primary hindrance in his career, which I personally believe.

Re: What Ox said is proof that Wenger laid back style of management isn't suitable for Gen Y players
Posted by: MattySadler (IP Logged)
Date: 18 January, 2018 07:55

No you are right. How many times did we see breathtaking mazy runs in Champions League Round of 16 defeats, and then no real progress after that? You can put that down to Ox himself as well as Wenger.

I agree with Caz though, Ox is now playing for a manager, in a team and style, that suits him down to the ground.

Re: What Ox said is proof that Wenger laid back style of management isn't suitable for Gen Y players
Posted by: SandyB (IP Logged)
Date: 18 January, 2018 13:32

Ah shano, Kevin de bruyne, you name another one made an ass outta yourself and yes I said it again Hype Harry gotta prove somewhere else outside English league by scoring some significant goals if he wanted to be acknowledged as anywhere clear to be best striker in the world, the reason is simple I don’t quite believe everything I see in the league for some strange reason sometimes it looks like WWE to me! That’s the conspiracy theorist I’m. Short story short even if Hype Harry scores 100 goals in a season still I don’t believe in his football talent, now I say it again... he gotta prove me wrong by scoring few important goals in CL or WC, normally that’s not a big ask previous great strikers like Ibra or current one like lewandowski did it on big stage so there will not be any different standard for Hype Harry. Hype Harry needs to prove the critics wrong, the jury is still out there.

Re: What Ox said is proof that Wenger laid back style of management isn't suitable for Gen Y players
Posted by: tigerline (IP Logged)
Date: 18 January, 2018 13:48

Quote:
SandyB
Ah shano, Kevin de bruyne, you name another one made an ass outta yourself and yes I said it again Hype Harry gotta prove somewhere else outside English league by scoring some significant goals if he wanted to be acknowledged as anywhere clear to be best striker in the world, the reason is simple I don’t quite believe everything I see in the league for some strange reason sometimes it looks like WWE to me! That’s the conspiracy theorist I’m. Short story short even if Hype Harry scores 100 goals in a season still I don’t believe in his football talent, now I say it again... he gotta prove me wrong by scoring few important goals in CL or WC, normally that’s not a big ask previous great strikers like Ibra or current one like lewandowski did it on big stage so there will not be any different standard for Hype Harry. Hype Harry needs to prove the critics wrong, the jury is still out there.

Your postulate presents quite the quandary ... how can Kane ever be expected to score a meaningful goal with his current club or national team?

He needs a transfer and a new passport to even have a chance.

Re: What Ox said is proof that Wenger laid back style of management isn't suitable for Gen Y players
Posted by: SandyB (IP Logged)
Date: 18 January, 2018 14:41

Quote:
tigerline
Quote:
SandyB
Ah shano, Kevin de bruyne, you name another one made an ass outta yourself and yes I said it again Hype Harry gotta prove somewhere else outside English league by scoring some significant goals if he wanted to be acknowledged as anywhere clear to be best striker in the world, the reason is simple I don’t quite believe everything I see in the league for some strange reason sometimes it looks like WWE to me! That’s the conspiracy theorist I’m. Short story short even if Hype Harry scores 100 goals in a season still I don’t believe in his football talent, now I say it again... he gotta prove me wrong by scoring few important goals in CL or WC, normally that’s not a big ask previous great strikers like Ibra or current one like lewandowski did it on big stage so there will not be any different standard for Hype Harry. Hype Harry needs to prove the critics wrong, the jury is still out there.

Your postulate presents quite the quandary ... how can Kane ever be expected to score a meaningful goal with his current club or national team?

He needs a transfer and a new passport to even have a chance.

That's again AKB kinda argument, if you read the 'Hype' about Harry Kane in English media comparing him with Messi, Ronaldo, Klinsmann, Van Basten etc then the hype of Tottenham n their wonder team then that suggests some big outcome not some god knows how many goals he scored against Swansea, Newcastle, West brom, Everton or Wimbledon.. nobody really cares!!

Re: What Ox said is proof that Wenger laid back style of management isn't suitable for Gen Y players
Posted by: CazOnARola (IP Logged)
Date: 18 January, 2018 15:03

No way is Harry kane capable of carrying an entire team like messivor maradona. You need to be first be a great dribbler or with exceptional first touch like Zidane to do that.
He can still be compared with ronaldo, not at a skill level but influence. Ronaldo had not been able to influence his team Portugal like messi or Maradona or even bergkamp could. Thsts cause he has great movement and stamina but won't be able to create something out of nothing like the other folks.

I think this discussion needs a different thread.

Coming back to ox, i dont think you need to reach your full potential to be successful. If you are in the right time with the right role, you cab contribute significantly. Fergie ~ great at motivating subs like o shea, olle gunnar, fletcher, etc to do their part.

I think klopp can get the max out of ox. But if be surprised if he becomes a world class talent because of what shane mentioned. But I think he can be far more successful than he was here under klopp

Re: What Ox said is proof that Wenger laid back style of management isn't suitable for Gen Y players
Posted by: SandyB (IP Logged)
Date: 18 January, 2018 17:15

Quote:
He can still be compared with ronaldo, not at a skill level but influence. Ronaldo had not been able to influence his team Portugal like messi or Maradona or even bergkamp could. Thsts cause he has great movement and stamina but won't be able to create something out of nothing like the other folks.
Hype Harry wouldn't be able to tie the boot of Gareth Bale let alone Ronaldo n Ronaldo won 3 CL for his club n one European championship for his country so he influenced his team better than Messi. The point is simple if we kick Wenger n Arsenal's ass for being in 6th place then you can't hype Harry Kane, Dele Alli, Eriksen n bunch of others for being on 5th place.Scoring truck load of goals against some sh.itty teams don't create a world beater.

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