Debunking the Debunker - In Defence of Wenger Myths1-5
Pat, Pat over here
By Eduardo
September 26 2011
Those of you who are familiar with me on Arsenal Times over the years will know a couple of things about me and my style of contribution to threads, firstly many will see me, despite many times laying blame for Arsenal failing at Arsene Wegner’s door, as an AKB, no not the rabid Arsene Knows Best type, but still an AKB.
Secondly you will know that I am fond of pointing out flaws of logic or inaccuracies of fact in others posts (even those who’s view point I’m backing), so it should not come as any surprise that I am in this article taking Celine to task for many things in his triple article “Debunking Ten Myths About Wenger" click here to read.
I will deal with each myth in turn and debunk it.
I would like to start by saying I agree with many of Celine’s points, and even more of his sentiments, but it’s the faults in his facts or view points, as I see them, that I am dealing with here.
First Myth: The best football manager Arsenal ever
There is much nonsense in the premise of your first argument Celine. Firstly Ginola and Zola were up and coming players at that time, and were not at that time considered megastars, Brolin yes, Asprilla less so.
The fact that the cup double was completed v Sheffield Wednesday tells you all you need to know about the difference in the circumstances of football in that era, there was no mega rich clubs, in no way is it fair to say Liverpool were the Man City of that time, there was no Man City or Chelsea like clubs at that time, Liverpool were the Man U of that era, and the fact that Norwich were title contenders around that time debunks your first flawed logic.
By the way we, as you clearly demonstrated, but somehow missed the point, Arsenal have won more trophies under Wenger than under Graham, as others pointed out all these trophies were done in the same or less time than GG’s trophy haul, yes we have now gone six years without winning one, but if you can base your argument on overall time at the club then its only fair that others can choose to base it on equal time at the club.
Thirdly in AW trophy winning seasons just like GG’s the team pulled off many wins in the big games, you can’t win the trophies he has without doing so.
Also to lambaste Wenger for losing the two league cup finals, the FAC final and the CL final is to ignore all the wins in massive games on the way to these finals, also the decisions that went against us in a couple of those finals, which again is unfair.
Second Myth: Wengerball is beautiful
The fact that you talk about GG having a wonder year too (92) and then admit it was only the second half of that season, says a lot, don’t get me wrong I think you are actually doing GG teams a disservice and that his 91 title wining side played wonderful football, as did the 89 side, but the fact that he chose to replace the wonderful midfield of Thomas, Davis, Rocastle, limpar with functional players like McGoldrick, Morrow, Selley, Hillier is the reason why for most people AW teams in general can be said to have played the better football. Plus the fact that AW teams best football would be said by nearly all Arsenal fans who seen both, be a level above GG teams best football.
As for your “Wenger’s 5 minute scribbles” in regard to the attacking play v BB last week, I’m not sure what you mean, but all I will say is that we did play some delightful attacking football in that game, how anyone can deny this is beyond me.
As for your playing down the achievement of the invincible FAPL season under Wenger as not being all that, as GG almost did it, well sorry to break it to you, but almost is not the same as doing (isn’t that what you have so often said to those AKB’s who say we almost won this or that). And on the point of GG’ side almost going unbeaten, several of the players in that side actually said it was a relief for them to get beaten by Chelsea, as it took the pressure off them, as they were finding it very difficult to play at their best, trying to stay unbeaten. Some even suggested that for weeks they had been more concerned in not losing games, which was costing them points. Losing freed them up to once again start playing to win again.
Third Myth: Wenger master minded Arsenal’s rise as European superpower
We did not get into the G14 till well into AW's time at the club. Yes we were in the European cup one season, surprised you remember it, we did not last long, a journey man Brazilian and Benfica seen to that, a couple of seasons in CWC and when Wenger arrived we were in EUFA cup, but under Wenger we have been in CL for 14 seasons, so although he is not solely responsible for Arsenal being one of the bigger European clubs, he deserves a lot of the credit. (Surely Englsih Clubs were banned from Europe for much of GG's reign. Ed)
Take a look at the history of clubs not only in England but across Europe who have moved grounds, and it is littered with freefall, relegations, years out of CL, even European competitions, so again a disservice is done to downplay the achievement of AW to keep Arsenal in the top 4 after the stadium move.
Now if you can not see how Wenger’s success played a key role in the financing of the move then either you are a fool or are not looking.
Also you are totally incorrect in saying “anyone would lend any amount of money to anyone”, as this might well have been business practice in general, but when it came to banks and football clubs, this was not the way, as banks have always seen football clubs as a way of losing money, as no clubs success is guaranteed, attendances are not certain, and the history of the game is that of clubs having highs followed by lows. In fact Arsenal found it almost impossible to get a bank loan, even PHW could not persuade the bank he worked for to loan the money. When we did get the loan it was a deal overloaded with clauses, the banks were petrified that Arsenal would not be able to pay it back.
I disagree with your claim “We were well on the way to being a part of this (globalisation) pre-Wenger”, the facts do not bear this out, from fan clubs to merchandise sales etc.
It’s also nonsense to say “Highbury used to sell out every game post all-seating” as it ignores the many times the place was half full, I remember the club on a few occasions having to ask the fans to turn up as we needed 22K to break even and we were not getting that average,.
4. Wenger is cash strapped
You miss the point completely on this topic, the fact that the transfer profit was needed to meet the running costs of the club, clearly shows Wenger has been hamstrung by lack of cash.
5. Wenger’s brilliant transfer record
Now Celine I know you probably are exaggerating for effect, but again in this section more nonsense,
Yes Jeffers and Wright did not set the world alight, Franny had awful injury record (indeed he was actually injured when he signed) but both players actually picked up FAPL winners medals while here, so both played there part in Arsenal winning the title while here, also despite neither having standout seasons, maybe having them in the squad made others push harder to hold their place in the team, so overall maybe £14M well spent.
As for Gio Van Bronkhorst, yes lets ignore he did his cruciate knee ligament early on in his time at AFC, by the way this nobody went on to where exactly after Arsenal, oh yes Barcelona, so maybe he was a good player.
That brings us to Reyes, I have had this argument with several people before, and yes his time at Arsenal was short, but yet long enough for him to win a FAPL (part of the invincibles), an FAC the following season, and play in a CL final the season after, oh what a failure, wish we had signed many more failures like him.
Hleb, you say cost £11.5, funny you forgot to mention we sold him for a profit. That brings us on to Wiltord, like Reyes, he won enough in his time at Arsenal to be called a success and on this point’s topic value for money.
Ah Nasri cost a cool 16 million you say (I say it was a few million less, but that is neither here nor there), but like with Hleb you fail to mention the sell on fee, £20M-£25M, a profit again, you know Celine you discredited your own argument with the players you mentioned.
You also talk about the figures being ordinary apart from Anelka and Adebayor, but again this is to ignore PV4 for £3,5M, play him for ten years and sell for £10M profit, TH14 for £10M have him for 9 years and sell him for £6M profit, I can name a few more if you like.
Eduardo's debunking of Myths 6-10 and his view of Wenger's Legacy here
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Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2011:10:02:23:39:21 by Padre Pio.
When people write, they write for effect. My piece was knocked out in a couple of hours. You convey facts selectively to get an underlying point accross, thats what a writer does. And I dont pretend to be particularly good at it. People can take it or leave it.
By all means pull me up on a few screamers, and there probably are a few, but I think taking this amount of time to annihilate every line of an articule is a bit silly really. Especically as a number of your points are no more fact based than mine were. For example -
The stirrings of commercial ambition were already in full flow pre-wenger, thank you very much. The clock end executive boxes, the demolition and rebuilding of the north bank which showed a lot of touches that made it a prototype of the emirates innovations, the FInsbury Park superstore, the bond scheme, and the purchase of Platt and Bergkamp. This is opinion, but one that plenty of people have agreed with me on, when you consider the state of the club in say 1985.
your point about transfer profits - again, you are missing the point, I see a player purchased, if they elect to move on again after a couple of seasons, as a waste of money. I dont care if they move for profit or not, as I make very clear later on. we are a football club, not a branch of Dixons after all.
my point about GG is overstated yes, but again, you miss the point, I am trying to show that they are closer than people seem to think certainly in terms of trophies per attempts. What does it matter if I choose a different but still perfectly mathmatical way of demonstrating it. The point is, Wenger is canonised and GG is more or less ignored, yet for a rainy afternoon at Stamford Bridge and a missed Van Nistelrooy penalty the fact is that it could well be the other way round. If people paid GG more credit and didnt worship the ground Wenger walked on and try and catch his farts in jars to put in the museum then I wouldnt even bother raising the issue, its not really my intention to detract from AWs achievement, just show that it was very nearly achieved by GG and that AW didnt INVENT football and INVENT Arsenal. When you are dealing with opinions as bonkers as the proper card carrying uber AKBs then yes you do need to ham things up a bit.
When I heard that you had come up with this enormous piece I thought 'fair enough' but now Ive read it I'm disappointed really, your picking me up on tiny tiny issues and half of them are no more factual than mine, just your different reading of the same situation
Parma had half the Italian National side in their back 4, for example. Why belittle GGs' achievement which at the time was regarded as miraculous. No there werent any externally fincanced clubs in the UK in 1989 or 1991, but Liverpool were regarded as the closest you could get. As I say, Barnes Beardsley, Houghton Aldridge were seen as MASSIVE purchases of the era, that would put Liverpool out of reach out of the rest of us.
On the McGoldrick/Selley/Hillier point, well Wenger could be said to have just sold Nasri and Fabregas and replaced them with Benayoun and Arteta. Again, this is my point, people are far too prepared to view everything AW has done in the context of 2002-2004, but these are a couple of seasons now standing very isolated in the scheme of things.
I dont think you have come up with anything particularly dynamite so far. But as long as you enjoyed yourself, I suppose.
I simply copied all your 3 bits to one word doc and as I went throught it wrote by debunking of it, as for dynamite, I was not looking to dynamite anything, just put forward the opposite view on some points, after all isn't that was a discussion forum is for, or did you only want comments from those clapping you on the back, if so you should have stated and I would not have bothered joining in,
*Signing Ozil is a signing Bergkamp type moment for Arsenal. It changes things utterly.*
Since the end of WW1, 1919, when the FA restarted its 4 tier football league, with Arsenal fc in the 1st div, there’s only ever been one club to have never been relegated from Div 1/ EPL.
Arsenal fc
Let’s keep making history
It upsets people when I say, but I believe it, the man is a busted flush. If that makes me a man of less substance so be it
"When we had to suffer the team is a lion because they suffer together." 4 July 2020 at Wolverhampton Wanderers
Arteta on his team's first away victory at a club above them in the Premiership since September 2015 at Leicester.
The insidious thing is this has not stoop them from misleading supporters about this reality and letting the manager take the heat while they got away with cashing in obscenly.
This will only change if we suddenly acquire a generous owner.
Eduardo can argue all the rest of his days with Celine but the evidence on the field supports Celine's viewpoint. It's moot though as I believe no manager is going to change our fortunes without a large cash injection.
I, to an extent, agree that we will not do much better than 4th under wenger and even getting that will be difficlt under him nowadays. Maybe we do need some new blood.
But what I 100% disagree with is that he has become an average manager overnight. I can understand that people are not rating his management , and I am one of those people, but to undermine what he has done for the club, which lets put it bluntly is what celine did (whether intentionally or not), is not right at all.
I get VERY annoyed when people use our current decline to undermine what wenger has done for us. Nonetheless i also get annoyed when people use what wenger has done for us in the past to cloud their judgement on what is going on now.
It is just finding the balance which I do not think many have shown in this forum of late in all honesty.
Just my opinion. Yes there are myths regarding wengers time here and what graham did has been severely overlooked in recent times. But it is criminal to ignore the wonders wenger has done for us as well. I think Celine said something about henry and viera being almost superhuman like players and with them wengers job was made easier. Albeit celine giving wenger some credit for finding them, I cannot see how we can criticise him for buying players who have underperformed of late and blame the manager for their poor performances, yet with his two best buys claim it was the players who deserve most the credit.
Unfortunatly, due to many reasons (some where wenger is not blameless) we have not been able to keep those players together playing all at once.
When wenger said keeping the 07/08 side would be the greatest challenge that season he really was not wrong. That team with the addition of the likes vermaelen and nasri would have won something. I am 100% sure of that.
But obviously it did not...
The answer is it was a long term decline of 5 or 6 years, not percetable at first, but then gathered speed.
"When we had to suffer the team is a lion because they suffer together." 4 July 2020 at Wolverhampton Wanderers
Arteta on his team's first away victory at a club above them in the Premiership since September 2015 at Leicester.
1, The same pundits/ journo's that say that Wenger was lucky to inherit Graham's defence were probably the same that were saying the first thing Wenger should do is get rid of them! back in 96 I don't think Mark, Luke, Matthew and John were as water-tight as people would have you believe certainly not as water tight as they were under their Messiah Mr Graham.
2, The very important roles of Petit and Vieira as the double pivot in front of the ageing back 4 are often overlooked. Both Adams and Keown stat that those two put about 3 years extra on their careers (they basically didn't have to do as much defending as they once had to). So although he did in-herrit one of the greatest back 4's ever assemble he DID make a direct input to reinvigorate or even improve the defence overall.
Now don't get me wrong Wenger's still pretty @#$%& at picking a defence as proved by the nightmare defence he picked to originally replace the back 4 (the likes of Cygan and Stepanovs) However I think its wrong for people to suggest he had nothing to do with our defensive setup or strategy and all he had to do was buy a few creative players. Anyway thats my take on it, feel free to disagree if you want
lauren-----sol------toure-----cole
was not bad either
"When we had to suffer the team is a lion because they suffer together." 4 July 2020 at Wolverhampton Wanderers
Arteta on his team's first away victory at a club above them in the Premiership since September 2015 at Leicester.