Harlequins v Saracens Prem Preview

What do you think? You can have your say by posting below.
If you do not already have an account Click here to Register.

Michelow and Christie must be due starts

Quins with a confidence boosting 50 point win today aswell

Agree with you Sarrov, we haven’t really seen an impressive performance so far.

In terms of personnel it’s difficult to say because as ever the club have been fairly silent on injuries. Martin and JMG for example, no idea where they are right now, either way a rather frustrating set of injuries as a lot of our carrying power is in the treatment room. I’d like to see O’Driscoll on the bench, thought he had a really encouraging performance v Bristol, even if they were rotated. I’ll keep banging the drum for Hall at 13, especially if Burke is at 10 so he can pick up kicking duties (not that Faz is covering himself in glory in that department). The obviously problem then is we then pair Va’enuku with yet another 13.

It all rather pales in significance to the overarching issues though. Our defence simply hasn’t improved at all, even v Bristol there were times when they were a pass away from cutting us open on first phase and a dodgy pass from them helped us out. This could be down to rotation but honestly, defence has been leaky for a while now. If we are concentrating on our defence to the detriment of our attack then God help us because our attack is extremely clunky, our attacking breakdown work hasn’t improved in years seemingly and our attacking maul is good all over the pitch until we get within 10ms of the tryline. There are some personnel changes that might help but if Connacht can stick 7 tries on us then Smtih/Furbank will have some fun. Maybe it’ll be a reaction performance we’ve seen over the last few years every now and again but it’s seems unlikely when we come up against Quins in their annual final mode at the stoop.

One thing on Hall - are we sure he is a fantastic kicker as opposed to just having a good game in preseason? Genuine question as I don't think I have ever seen him kick before.

Burke was fantastic off the tee against Leicester and then back to decidedly average against Sale.

I want him involved either way but curious to hear from others with more intel

Quote:

Sarrov
One thing on Hall - are we sure he is a fantastic kicker as opposed to just having a good game in preseason? Genuine question as I don't think I have ever seen him kick before

I'd love to know that too.
Tbh when I've seen him playing at 13 as opposed to wing I've not been super confident he is ready for the step up and I wouldn't "promote" him on the basis of kicking alone especially as 13 is a position we actually have options.

Quins were good today and Smith played very well but I'd hope we know enough not to give him the times and space Vannes did.

Quote:

Sarrov
One thing on Hall - are we sure he is a fantastic kicker as opposed to just having a good game in preseason? Genuine question as I don't think I have ever seen him kick before.
Burke was fantastic off the tee against Leicester and then back to decidedly average against Sale.

I want him involved either way but curious to hear from others with more intel

It’s a fair point, possibly me clutching at straws. I think 12 successful conversions is nothing to be sniffed at though, matter the quality of the oppoisition. I also think he’s an excellent talent either way and his future IMO is at 13 more than in the back 3. Re Burke’s kicking, we have far more data to suggest it won’t ever be massively reliable.

Quote:

TommyKentish

Quote:

Sarrov
One thing on Hall - are we sure he is a fantastic kicker as opposed to just having a good game in preseason? Genuine question as I don't think I have ever seen him kick before.
Burke was fantastic off the tee against Leicester and then back to decidedly average against Sale.

I want him involved either way but curious to hear from others with more intel

It’s a fair point, possibly me clutching at straws. I think 12 successful conversions is nothing to be sniffed at though, matter the quality of the oppoisition. I also think he’s an excellent talent either way and his future IMO is at 13 more than in the back 3. Re Burke’s kicking, we have far more data to suggest it won’t ever be massively reliable.

No, definitely not to be sniffed at.

I also want to see him at 13. I was so frustrated against Bristol when we gave him less than 10 minutes and on the wing. I thought CInti and Va'eneku played well together against Bristol so would stick with them as a starting pair. Ditch the 6/2 and have Hall as an option off the bench.

I think a kicker can improve through hard work as it is a relatively closed skill. I don't think Burke will ever be Jonny Wilkinson kicking wise, but he could be Toby Flood!

Thought Burkes kicking against Leicester was very good, but his reversal against Sale is a concern. He will only get more consistent if he is picked to start on each occasion. Confidence rather htan ability is at the heart of his kicking performance.

Absolutely dreading this. If our defences is a revolving door again this could get seriously ugly. You have to wonder what they are doing week on week in defense.

In terms of Hall vs Saints in the cup, his 12 from 12 were mostly from out wide and the standard of the opposition is a moot point when it comes to his success rate - obviously, it gave him more kicks at goal and it wasn’t a high pressure situation, but that’s about all.

I think standard of opposition comes into the physical and mental demand a player is under, which may have an impact on kicking.

It's kind of the elephant in the room but whether Burke is staying or moving on is probably a significant part of the calculation re his kicking.
If he's staying, and I really hope he is but suspect he's not, then backing him as a kicker and working really hard on that with the coaches is well worth it.
If he's not as we let our third choice 10 go he's still worth backing to start over our other 10 because we actually want to win games but maybe we do look to have someone else do the kicking for that same reason.

I thought that in the limited time the third choice 10 (Louie Johnson) had, he looked the best kicker

About 700 seats till the Stoop is sold out.

Hamish Smailes ref with Tempest on the flag. We really have upset someone.

Quote:

The Bard
Hamish Smailes ref with Tempest on the flag. We really have upset someone.

4 games played 4 losses with Smales as ref

Is there a Ref we are happy with?

Absolutely. Anthony Woodthorpe, Adam Leal, Christophe Ridley to name but three.

Quote:

gerry1
Is there a Ref we are happy with?

As bad as people think they are, we actually have the best records with Dickson and Maxwell-Keys

I only really start noticing the ref when we’re losing to be honest so I try to put it out of my mind. The players need to be able to deal with different reffing interpretations and be good enough to take it out of the equation.

I think Maxwell-Keys is a good ref. Most of them are generally pretty good.

And I don’t mind us having Dickson at all. He’s a loose cannon and a leveller. 50% of the time now we’re playing stronger sides, so having a levelling ref is a good thing.

I seem to remember us always winning with Poite, Garces and Owens in Europe.

Our worst ref ever was definitely Alaine Rolland. Terrible record with him.

I think Andrew Brace is the modern equivalent of Rolland, although hopefully he’ll never make it to those levels.

I feel like I have a face and possibly name blindness with referees. I don't really remember which ones are good or bad until they make their first anti-Sarries call!

Sounds like Baxter is back for Quins and it will be young Marcus 200th cap.

Sodeke’s injury confirmed as a broken hand, out for 6 weeks.

After all the disappointment and negativity of last week
If we win these next 2 Prem games against arguably the worst 2 teams in the league we’ll be comfortably in the top 2 in the league
Granted Decembers fixtures look brutal in comparison

Happy with that side, think we stand as good a chance as any.

Pleased to see Rhys and Theo back, Ferg, Mitch and Jack starting.

Quins side

STARTING XV:

15. George Furbank (3)

14. Rodrigo Isgró (28)

13. Luke Northmore (102)

12. Bryn Bradley (40)

11. Cadan Murley (C) (155)

10. Marcus Smith (199)

9. Will Porter (64)

1. Fin Baxter (77)

2. Sam Riley (87)

3. Ollie Streeter (17)

4. James Dun (5)

5. Kieran Treadwell (32)

6. Jack Kenningham (102)

7. Seb Driscoll (12)

8. Lucas Schmid (16)

IMPACT PLAYERS:

16. Jimmy Staples (7)

17. Will Hobson (44)

18. Pedro Delgado (22)

19. Elliot Williams (13)

20. Harry Browne (20)

21. Will Evans (137)

22. Lucas Friday (23)

23. Nick David (91)

Happy enough with the side we have selected. Much the better side on paper, but that counts for nothing if our attitude and accuracy isn't right.

Certainly not the biggest side we have ever selected and is one that is set up to play at speed. Let's see if Tomos and Fergus can get the team moving around the park.

I'm always worried about Quins work at the breakdown in this particular fixture so Martin, Maro, Michelow and AOC will have work on their hands to beat Kenningham etc to the ball.

The weather looks set fair for Sunday too which should lead to a good game. Let's hope Malins can deal with the high bombs this time.

Really like that team. Lets hope they are given the freedom to play to their ability rather than instructed to defend and play without the ball.

Quote:

The Wolfpack Watch
I'm always worried about Quins work at the breakdown in this particular fixture so Martin, Maro, Michelow and AOC will have work on their hands to beat Kenningham etc to the ball

Evans on the bench too. With the weather set fair and the team selected there are worse plans that keeping the ball off the deck and moving rather than allowing the rucks that give those players that chance. Appreciate that is easier said than done especially depending on how our handling goes.

Is Va'enuku injured. Seems odd not to pick a direct option and whilst he had some issues in the last game what he brought balanced that out. I really like the backs but does it maybe have the potential to be a bit lateral with those choices at centre.

A big work on will be not letting restarts and up and unders bounce.

I guess hes played 3 on the trott so due for a rest, Cinti has barely been used.

Good point the Bard. I'd forgotten Hartley's injury meant he's done 3.

I'd guess with fair weather and his 200th cap Smith will be desperate to put on a show which normally means mainly playing for himself so I hope we look to tackle him first and foremost and don't buy the dummies especially in our 22.

It's the hope that kills you. The team looks quality but how we were asked to play v Sale still haunts me.

I’ve seen a comment that Va’enuku is nursing a sore shoulder but nothing too serious. Not sure to the veracity of that, with the shots he puts in it wouldn’t surprise me!

I assume it’s just as windy in Twickenham today as north London, the kickers and back three are going to have fun. At least it isn’t peeing down though.

Whenever we play at Quins they always stick it up in the air for our back 3 - remember Goodie and Max both having mares there!

Quote:

TommyKentish
I assume it’s just as windy in Twickenham today as north London, the kickers and back three are going to have fun. At least it isn’t peeing down though.

You made me look at the weather for Twickenham and actually it is just a moderate breeze as it is less windy in South London than North and the wind is dropping all the time. So no excuses due to the weather. About as good as it gets for late October!

Defence just as good as last week then.

Dropping the ball over the line like that, especially in the context of the match is criminal.

Which coach do you think is more angry at the moment? I'm actually going for Gilmore. We are the only team they seem motivated to get stuck in to.

Nick T does a good job packing down at 7

Supporting Saracens for over 55 years.

Quote:

TommyKentish
Dropping the ball over the line like that, especially in the context of the match is criminal.

Completely inexcusable. He's done it before with Bristol so you would have thought he would learn. Just utterly brainless like the vast majority of this half

We look like a team who has never played together... because they haven't. This selection policy is crippling us. We are so much poorer than the sum of our parts.

Embarrassing. The reason our season turned around last year is we finally dropped the Tompkins and Cinti axis - and they are back to haunt us with vengeance.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2026:10:25:15:38:27 by LondonSarrie.

As bad as half you could see
Absolute embarrassment from Malins in defence aswell as the blunder
This rotation needs to stop now

Yes, the rotation policy isn't working but we look an incredibly poorly coached team. I know people say you can't criticise the coaches but the players have absolutely no shape in attack and defence which is a coaching issue

Poor discipline is costing us. We’re also seeing the downside of Dr Vs rotation policy. The upside of resting players isn’t as easily visible.
On another note, I didn’t think Tomos was a worse place kicker than Max.

Supporting Saracens for over 55 years.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2026:10:25:15:51:36 by Supporting Saracens for over 55 years. .

Theo might be the worst line out thrower we have ever had. A couple of metres in the carry doesnt make up for a complete lack of attacking platform

Lucky not to be down to 13 their b4 Quins 4th Try for repeated pens in your 22!!

Venter brings nothing to the side, Adam Powell brings nothing to Saracens. 4 tries in 36 minutes with a yellow and probably concussion to our ONLY matchday specialist 10 (Fergy).
The 6/2 needs to go
The dumb rotation needs to go
The tompkins/cinti axis needs to go

I can see us losing by 40+ today

I didn’t expect much but this is managing to massively under perform even to the very low bar I set myself.

This is all coaching. They are a joke.

Venter was great first time around - but seems to have read a David Brent management book in the meantime. One of the things it has taught him is to say a player name every 5 seconds when he is talking to them.

"The thing is, Owen, this is going to be a tough game, Maro, and Quins will be really up for it, Max" its got so cringeworthy. Watch any YouTube video.

I’m afraid that was a completely unacceptable half.

Venters too clever by half rotation management chat nonsense has to stop.

The coaching is clearly an issue but also coaches don't tell players:

- to prat around over the line instead of putting the ball down.
- slip off multiple tackles
- throw the ball in at a 45 degree angle at the line out
- over run kick chases allowing the attacker to easily beat the first man
- fling the ball out of the tackle

No but they create a culture of enabling it.

Coaches messing around with job titles, joke wine evenings with journalists > sets a lack of professional standard that permeates through the entire club.

Charlie Morgan, The Times

“Harlequins look like a side that has been growing over the season so far. Saracens look like a side that have chopped and changed and compromised cohesion as a result.”


[x.com]

I’m usually too positive about Saracens, but this season feels like its over already. We nearly gave it away against Tigers, who were missing a lots of first choice players. Struggled against Sale. Didn’t look convincing against Bristol’s second team. Lost to a mid table Connaught. And now this. And Newcastle who are improving each week as fast as we’re getting worse.

Another wasted season.

Too many soft penalties by far too many players. Malins is having a second mare at the Stoop, with some weak tackling, inability to put the ball down in goal and then a poor conversion.

We really don’t look like a team especially the backs as I don’t think we have even passed the ball to Jack Bracken.

Our scrum is on top but our line out is unreliable as Theo’s throwing is pretty dodgy.

We’ve been slipping off tackles like this for years now. If it’s not a coaching issue then why are the coaches still picking people who can’t tackle? Or coaching a system that doesn’t get the most out of our talented squad.

Quote:

Sarrov
The coaching is clearly an issue but also coaches don't tell players:
- to prat around over the line instead of putting the ball down.
- slip off multiple tackles
- throw the ball in at a 45 degree angle at the line out
- over run kick chases allowing the attacker to easily beat the first man
- fling the ball out of the tackle

As others have said, a lot of these issues are borne out of long lasting coaching issues. The defence is shocking and our defence coach has somehow got a gig with England A.

Dan has been throwing poorly but it was a woeful decision to throw to the back of a lineout with this wind, down to 14 and our 10 currently off with an HIA. Just brainless stuff.

We can still come into this with the scrum and maul but the discipline has to improve dramatically.

Hopefully we see the end of the rotation nonsense now though and the corporate one liners about wine etc have to stop as it just makes us look stupid.

Quote:

saracensfan61
Venter brings nothing to the side, Adam Powell brings nothing to Saracens. 4 tries in 36 minutes with a yellow and probably concussion to our ONLY matchday specialist 10 (Fergy).
The 6/2 needs to go
The dumb rotation needs to go
The tompkins/cinti axis needs to go

I can see us losing by 40+ today

Don’t knock Nick T who’s an international quality inside centre with proven Saracens quality over many years following BBs retirement.
Edit. and a try scorer…

Supporting Saracens for over 55 years.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2026:10:25:16:34:02 by Supporting Saracens for over 55 years. .

Quote:

MidlandsSarrie
I’m usually too positive about Saracens, but this season feels like its over already. We nearly gave it away against Tigers, who were missing a lots of first choice players. Struggled against Sale. Didn’t look convincing against Bristol’s second team. Lost to a mid table Connaught. And now this. And Newcastle who are improving each week as fast as we’re getting worse.
Another wasted season.

We haven’t actually played a good side this season yet.

(Whatever the Fezcast bloke said about Connacht being better than All Blacks… they’re not )

Quote:

The Wolfpack Watch

Quote:

Sarrov
The coaching is clearly an issue but also coaches don't tell players:
- to prat around over the line instead of putting the ball down.
- slip off multiple tackles
- throw the ball in at a 45 degree angle at the line out
- over run kick chases allowing the attacker to easily beat the first man
- fling the ball out of the tackle

As others have said, a lot of these issues are borne out of long lasting coaching issues. The defence is shocking and our defence coach has somehow got a gig with England A.

Dan has been throwing poorly but it was a woeful decision to throw to the back of a lineout with this wind, down to 14 and our 10 currently off with an HIA. Just brainless stuff.

We can still come into this with the scrum and maul but the discipline has to improve dramatically.

Hopefully we see the end of the rotation nonsense now though and the corporate one liners about wine etc have to stop as it just makes us look stupid.

Coaches don't call the line out. That's on Maro.

The defence has structural issues clearly, but players also have to commit and want to dominate collisions.

Why is everyone so desperate not to blame the coaches...

And now we are taking off the only thing that was working - our front row.

Three cheers for Sireli Bobo

George Martin looking completely uninterested in a Saracens shirt

Awful 1st half. Malins a complete embarrassment. Kicking at goal useless as usual. Line out throwing poor. Defence none existent yet Earl saying beforehand they want to be a team hard to score tries against. Very disappointing against this lot but they can always raise their game, we seemingly cant. At least a maul try at last



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2026:10:25:16:22:08 by maynas.

Quote:

MarkCol7
George Martin looking completely uninterested in a Saracens shirt

Probably can't believe what he has turned up to deal with.

We deserve to lose by 50. But I'm sure nothing will change.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2026:10:25:16:27:13 by LondonSarrie.

That try sums us up.

Clueless and clunky in attack, terrible individual decision and skill execution, handed off by a scrum half you are twice the size of

Another load of rubbish. We have the squad but seemingly not the selection for the staring 15, nor the ability on the pitch. The season has been clouded by Venter. I thought it was a backward step appointing him and also worried they were buying time for Owen to come in to the Coaching set-up. It’s not a good watch it’s just a waste of talent t and time. The bull about the wince consultant is just bizarre when display on the Pitch suggest the coaching ability to choose the right wine for the meal is way off! It’s just so poor!

VICTORfez following sarries and bees since '76

Tomos Williams has also given up , not bothering to get to the last few breakdowns
You can tell the new guys weren’t sold this when they signed under McCall

A slip of words “wince consultant” / “wine consultant”
Whatever it’s just not good enough - better has corked, with some of the coaching team. Sour grapes.

VICTORfez following sarries and bees since '76

Feel sorry for Webber having to front up and do an interview mid match when the scrum that he coaches has been the only part of the game we’ve done well

I think this is the worst performance of the lot. Basic skills are so poor. So many dropped balls week after week, line out is a lottery.

Other than playing football and cricket and “getting to know one another” what do they do in training?

I repeat… we haven’t actually played a decent side yet. November through to January could be grim

Chasing a bonus point and absolutely no urgency to kick a penalty to touch

The catch pass skills of this team vs other prem teams is light years apart. Yet another coaching issue.

Absolutely no complaints about the result today but Hamish Smales has confirmed he should be nowhere near being a ref at this standard. He is a touch judge at best.

Pile of manure

Lots of naysayers on here today- maybe get a coaching qualification yourselves before being so quick to criticise? Or stick to soccer?
We’ve switched to a squad based system. Get used to it or go elsewhere.
Quins have been our bogey team in recent years, credit to them! Despite our test quality leaders they were more up for it today than we were. Get over it.

Supporting Saracens for over 55 years.

Imo all roads lead back to the rotation policy.

In defence and attack we look like complete strangers. Everything is incredibly clunky and slow paced.

Scrap the rotation, scrap the 6/2, play our best side (whatever that is).

Disappointing performance and so many basic errors. My favourite was when we got penalised for not having the right number of players in the line out!
The 6 vs 2 split has yet again shown itself to be a disaster as having Farrell on the bench would have been useful.
It seems that every week we get outplayed by the oppos back row, which is criminal.
We will get better but that was very poor indeed.

Quote:

Supporting Saracens for over 55 years.
Lots of naysayers on here today- maybe get a coaching qualification yourselves before being so quick to criticise? Or stick to soccer?
We’ve switched to a squad based system. Get used to it or go elsewhere.
Quins have been our bogey team in recent years, credit to them! Despite our test quality leaders they were more up for it today than we were. Get over it.

A bit weird to say get over it minutes after being smashed by our rivals who were bottom of the league 😂 If you’re a Saracens fan and not monumentally disappointed by the way we’re playing at the moment then I don’t know what to say.

Quote:

Supporting Saracens for over 55 years.
Lots of naysayers on here today- maybe get a coaching qualification yourselves before being so quick to criticise? Or stick to soccer?
We’ve switched to a squad based system. Get used to it or go elsewhere.
Quins have been our bogey team in recent years, credit to them! Despite our test quality leaders they were more up for it today than we were. Get over it.

What an utterly odd post. It's literally their job to coach the team and you don't need your coaches badges to see they are doing a poor job of it given the standard of players in the squad. Remember it is also their choice to rotate so that falls on them too.

We've lost to Quins (yet again!) in ridiculously disappointing fashion and we just need to get over it. Words fails me.

The discipline is awful, the catch pass is awful, the shape is non existent and the defence is miles off it.

Quote:

The Wolfpack Watch

Quote:

Supporting Saracens for over 55 years.
Lots of naysayers on here today- maybe get a coaching qualification yourselves before being so quick to criticise? Or stick to soccer?
We’ve switched to a squad based system. Get used to it or go elsewhere.
Quins have been our bogey team in recent years, credit to them! Despite our test quality leaders they were more up for it today than we were. Get over it.

What an utterly odd post. It's literally their job to coach the team and you don't need your coaches badges to see they are doing a poor job of it given the standard of players in the squad. Remember it is also their choice to rotate so that falls on them too.


We've lost to Quins (yet again!) in ridiculously disappointing fashion and we just need to get over it. Words fails me.

The discipline is awful, the catch pass is awful, the shape is non existent and the defence is miles off it.

What part of over 55 years (now 60 years) is it you don’t understand?

Supporting Saracens for over 55 years.

Quote:

Supporting Saracens for over 55 years.
Lots of naysayers on here today- maybe get a coaching qualification yourselves before being so quick to criticise? Or stick to soccer?
We’ve switched to a squad based system. Get used to it or go elsewhere.
Quins have been our bogey team in recent years, credit to them! Despite our test quality leaders they were more up for it today than we were. Get over it.

LOL

Got what we deserved. Hope their new plan to be the ars**oles of rugby works out and attracts all these droves of fans they are hoping for - because the way they are running the club is making it harder and harder for the old fans to stick with.

Its not even about the performances. Its about the way the whole club now conducts themselves. It's embarrassing. Every week a new controversy - most self-inflicted.

But at least the new CEO has had a marvellous three months with athletic events.

Quote:

Supporting Saracens for over 55 years.

Quote:

The Wolfpack Watch

Quote:

Supporting Saracens for over 55 years.
Lots of naysayers on here today- maybe get a coaching qualification yourselves before being so quick to criticise? Or stick to soccer?
We’ve switched to a squad based system. Get used to it or go elsewhere.
Quins have been our bogey team in recent years, credit to them! Despite our test quality leaders they were more up for it today than we were. Get over it.

What an utterly odd post. It's literally their job to coach the team and you don't need your coaches badges to see they are doing a poor job of it given the standard of players in the squad. Remember it is also their choice to rotate so that falls on them too.


We've lost to Quins (yet again!) in ridiculously disappointing fashion and we just need to get over it. Words fails me.

The discipline is awful, the catch pass is awful, the shape is non existent and the defence is miles off it.

What part of over 55 years (now 60 years) is it you don’t understand?

Virtually everything I'm afraid as I didn't say anything about how long you have supported the team for. Congrats by the way but that still doesn't make any difference to the current team not being coached well.

I'm all ears (I'm sure others are too) as to what you think they're doing well at the moment.

Well done Quins. Maybe it is there Cup Final but at least they have one. We're looking increasingly like a team who struggle to get up for actually playing the game. As others have said maybe not everyone has bought into the odd management style.

I thought Quins were well worth the win and Smith was great for about the first twenty. Northmore my MotM he shut so much of our attack down but honestly I thought the coverage was a bit OTT on how good Quins had to be to stop us.
We looked clunky again because as others have said these combinations aren't being given the time.
It was always an odd call not to build on the good of last season but I kind of got it. I'm not sure we can see the rotation thing out though we need to start backing a main XV/23 now.

Usual question about tactics. Why did we kick long the whole first half. If you're barely going to pass the ball to Bracken why aren't we giving him ball to chase.

Hopefully Burke is ok.

Quote:

TommyKentish
Dropping the ball over the line like that, especially in the context of the match is criminal.

Agree 100% although tbf credit to Smith who knocked it out of his hands. Kicking aside I thought Malins stepped in well at 10 but by then he'd already made a couple of awful mistakes.

After our conversation above re Dan we got to see exactly what we were talking about. He actively seems to run away from support and back into areas where defence is concentrated. Twice we had numbers wider and even if he's not going to pass at least carry further out. Instead he cuts back inside and gets isolated. His throwing isn't good enough for him to be in a 23 right now.

Williams was both incredibly poor but also a few just incredible moments but not the control you need at 9. We looked much better when James came on. Too often in their 22 players went for hero moments trying to drive through bodies when it felt like we needed patience.

The few positives I can find.
Itoje continues to be our one exceptional player.
The scrum in the first 40 was great. I don't think I have ever seen a scrum so comprehensively stuffed as Quins was in that period and not seen a card shown to a TightHead repeatedly standing up under pressure. Four times in a row excluding the first erroneous penalty given against Carre when Streeter was too long and couldn't chase his feet.
In the last 20 we actually got Cinti onto the ball and you could see the threat he can be in attack.
In very limited phases you could see the potential in our attack. Ultimately though it was breaking down when it became "hot potato" stuff rather than attack with an intent.
I think we should regard that the coaches surely have to junk this rotation stuff as a positive.

I think we should all be concerned that Venter is here for more than a season and McCall is very obviously still deeply involved. In previous seasons we've ignored the chance to refresh when senior players needed to go and it now feels like we've done the same with coaches. Webber aside it's really hard to make a case for any of them.

I was going to go to the StoneX next week... might not bother after all of that.

Just go for the Women's rugby Sarriebone. Its been the best rugby played at the StoneX for over three seasons.

Oh I definitely will, I've promised I'll take my 8yr old niece as well

Watching the wine tasting special and Ashton asking BV when rotation will become an issue if results aren’t good. BV says he doesn’t know. I’d put it a different way, how long can we do it when the performances are this poor, even when we’ve won it’s not been convincing.

Quote:

TommyKentish
If you’re a Saracens fan and not monumentally disappointed by the way we’re playing at the moment then I don’t know what to say.

+1

The "if you know all the answers why don't you coach" line is one of the stupider ones out there as is the idea that you either have to be a club coach to see issues with how we play or that they are in some way infallible because they coach at club level.

We look like Bath under Hooper. Short of ideas, a bit complacent and not getting better in a hurry with the current set up.

Quote:

PaulHerox

Quote:

TommyKentish
If you’re a Saracens fan and not monumentally disappointed by the way we’re playing at the moment then I don’t know what to say.

+1

The "if you know all the answers why don't you coach" line is one of the stupider ones out there as is the idea that you either have to be a club coach to see issues with how we play or that they are in some way infallible because they coach at club level.

Exactly, I can't make a pizza, but if I order one from Dominoes and they deliver a turd in a box then I think I'm entitled to say it's a terrible pizza...

Quote:

TommyKentish
Watching the wine tasting special and Ashton asking BV when rotation will become an issue if results aren’t good. BV says he doesn’t know

Well that's reassuring ...

Quote:

Supporting Saracens for over 55 years.
Lots of naysayers on here today- maybe get a coaching qualification yourselves before being so quick to criticise? Or stick to soccer?
We’ve switched to a squad based system. Get used to it or go elsewhere.
Quins have been our bogey team in recent years, credit to them! Despite our test quality leaders they were more up for it today than we were. Get over it.

I have a Tag Rugby level one coaching qualification with RFU.

Can I comment?

Quote:

Stonexjim

Quote:

Supporting Saracens for over 55 years.
Lots of naysayers on here today- maybe get a coaching qualification yourselves before being so quick to criticise? Or stick to soccer?
We’ve switched to a squad based system. Get used to it or go elsewhere.
Quins have been our bogey team in recent years, credit to them! Despite our test quality leaders they were more up for it today than we were. Get over it.

I have a Tag Rugby level one coaching qualification with RFU.

Can I comment?

Not just comment mate; I think we give you the DOR head coach wine whatever for next weekend. Couldn’t do a worse job.

Quote:

TommyKentish
Watching the wine tasting special and Ashton asking BV when rotation will become an issue if results aren’t good. BV says he doesn’t know. I’d put it a different way, how long can we do it when the performances are this poor, even when we’ve won it’s not been convincing.

Shaw in his post match interview, said ‘we’ll have to have a look at it’ when asked if the rotation was working
The stuff about ‘earning a seat at the table’ is starting to get tiresome now

Quote:

#wolfpack1

Quote:

Stonexjim

Quote:

Supporting Saracens for over 55 years.
Lots of naysayers on here today- maybe get a coaching qualification yourselves before being so quick to criticise? Or stick to soccer?
We’ve switched to a squad based system. Get used to it or go elsewhere.
Quins have been our bogey team in recent years, credit to them! Despite our test quality leaders they were more up for it today than we were. Get over it.

I have a Tag Rugby level one coaching qualification with RFU.

Can I comment?

Not just comment mate; I think we give you the DOR head coach wine whatever for next weekend. Couldn’t do a worse job.

I think I’ve proved over the last three years that I know what I’m talking about 😂

Now then. I'm reliably informed that unless you've coached a Prem club to European Club Final and won, picked up dog poo from the old ground and stolen one of Venter's pink wafers you aren't able to offer an informed view on the rugby we're playing.

What really baffles me is the fact that the end of last season showed signs of where this team could get to. There was absolutely no need for BV to come in and start again from 0.

We strengthened the squad (Willis leaving excluded), the young players are more experienced and physically developed, combinations had begun to develop.

Why make the start of the season a shoot out to "earn a seat at the table"? The league is so small every game counts.

Hopefully Venter can show some humility and accept he has got things very wrong both on and off the pitch. Shaw talking about being in a position at the end of the season to bring players in seamlessly. Who cares if that is as part of a battle for 6th place!?

On a positive note - Roti was excellent as usual. Dit brilliantly for his try and to set up the position for Max to have a complete brain failure. Maro was brilliant again. Tizard actually looked like he wanted to be there and put himself about unlike a lot of others. Scrum went well

Quote:

MarkCol7

Quote:

TommyKentish
Watching the wine tasting special and Ashton asking BV when rotation will become an issue if results aren’t good. BV says he doesn’t know. I’d put it a different way, how long can we do it when the performances are this poor, even when we’ve won it’s not been convincing.

Shaw in his post match interview, said ‘we’ll have to have a look at it’ when asked if the rotation was working
The stuff about ‘earning a seat at the table’ is starting to get tiresome now

Earning a seat at the table is fine, welcome even after the last few seasons of senior players being relied on yet underperforming. Rotation for rotations sake, even if it is to blend new combos, isn’t working. And we have seen that Maro isn’t rotated because he is that good, so why not leave the other people in who have performed instead of rotating out no matter the performance.

Quote:

Sarrov
What really baffles me is the fact that the end of last season showed signs of where this team could get to. There was absolutely no need for BV to come in and start again from 0

^This

Exactly Tommy.

In the last couple of seasons, it’s been impossible to play yourself out of the side. So a bit of accountability is well overdue.

But here, you can’t play yourself in or out of the side. Whether or not you’re playing has already been decided no matter how many ineffectual performances you put in.

If the up shot is that in the second half of the season players who have done well (Sione, Jack B, Maro) play and those who haven’t (imo Max, Charlie B, Faz) don’t then it kind of makes sense. But by that point we’re already out of all competitions, and you still have to try and create some cohesiveness because you’re kind of starting with a brand new team who probably haven’t played together.

Imo it’s massively over complicating everything and is doing no one any favours.

Meanwhile, we’ve decided to be everyone’s enemies again off the field which, frankly, is a bit tiresome.

Quote:

LondonSarrie
Got what we deserved. Hope their new plan to be the ars**oles of rugby works out and attracts all these droves of fans they are hoping for - because the way they are running the club is making it harder and harder for the old fans to stick with.
Its not even about the performances. Its about the way the whole club now conducts themselves. It's embarrassing. Every week a new controversy - most self-inflicted.

But at least the new CEO has had a marvellous three months with athletic events.

This is unfortunately the way I feel. The social media team, especially. Humility my @#$%&.

Couldn’t understand why we weren’t challenging lineouts on halfway when they clearly weren’t going to maul. It was just inviting them on to us.
My fears about Hamish Smales proved correct, no idea how he penalised our first lineout and scrum, and the penalty try was very quickly awarded when it was far from clear they were going over.
We created far more than we have there the last two seasons but handling let us down time and again, and we really missed Sione running straight.
So frustrating

Quote:

LondonSarrie
Got what we deserved. Hope their new plan to be the ars**oles of rugby works out and attracts all these droves of fans they are hoping for - because the way they are running the club is making it harder and harder for the old fans to stick with.
Its not even about the performances. Its about the way the whole club now conducts themselves. It's embarrassing. Every week a new controversy - most self-inflicted.

But at least the new CEO has had a marvellous three months with athletic events.

Exactly my thoughts. Do we know if anyone inside the Club reads these pages.

I was one of the frankly pitifully few who ventured down to the Stoop today.
Plus points
Rhys had his opposite number on toast
Quins have cask London Pride on.
Minus points
oh God where to start.
No backline organisation in attack or defence
turned over in the tackle way too often - back row too slow to arrive
no pace in the carry so no room to move the ball wide against an advancing defence
way too many penalties (people who watched on TV might have a better idea about the justification for some of them)
we don't have a confident kicker at 10 either from hand or at goal (Neither Ferg nor Max) - Kicks for touch improved when Angus took over at FB.
That bloody awful Max moment (sorry).
The usual pain about getting there & back via various trains & tubes.
The occasional really obnoxious Quins supporter shouting abuse in your earhole.

I won't be going back there next time.

Quote:

nicsue

Quote:

LondonSarrie
Got what we deserved. Hope their new plan to be the ars**oles of rugby works out and attracts all these droves of fans they are hoping for - because the way they are running the club is making it harder and harder for the old fans to stick with.
Its not even about the performances. Its about the way the whole club now conducts themselves. It's embarrassing. Every week a new controversy - most self-inflicted.

But at least the new CEO has had a marvellous three months with athletic events.

Exactly my thoughts. Do we know if anyone inside the Club reads these pages.

‘Dirtybertie’ who seemed to have an inside link, last year claimed members of the playing and coaching staff read this forum

Ed Griffiths used to post when he was in charge

Quote:

Simitch

Quote:

LondonSarrie
Got what we deserved. Hope their new plan to be the ars**oles of rugby works out and attracts all these droves of fans they are hoping for - because the way they are running the club is making it harder and harder for the old fans to stick with.
Its not even about the performances. Its about the way the whole club now conducts themselves. It's embarrassing. Every week a new controversy - most self-inflicted.

But at least the new CEO has had a marvellous three months with athletic events.

This is unfortunately the way I feel. The social media team, especially. Humility my @#$%&.

Absolutely spot on comment. The whole new feel about the club is sickening and cringeworthy. The social media, the 'original club of north london' b8llcks. It's all rubbish. Perhaps worry about the performances on the field before the political bullsh*t.

Not only were numerous 'senior' players today a complete embarassment to the badge, but some of the coaches futures' need to be questioned. What are we paying Powell for when he couldn't coach his way out a bag. Won't even comment on my thoughts on Venter else I fear I may get banned.

Forgot to mention the whole Wine Consultant business. Another ridiculous frankly childish aside.

Re Social media. Does it genuinely generate new bums on seats? Attendences would suggest not. Does it generate off field income? If not, just stick ti clips of match highlights and details of booking seats etc.

I don’t mind the Original Club stuff providing it generates income, but I don’t see a lot of evidence of it

Quote:

darktagnan
I was one of the frankly pitifully few who ventured down to the Stoop today.
Plus points
Rhys had his opposite number on toast
Quins have cask London Pride on.
Minus points
oh God where to start.
No backline organisation in attack or defence
turned over in the tackle way too often - back row too slow to arrive
no pace in the carry so no room to move the ball wide against an advancing defence
way too many penalties (people who watched on TV might have a better idea about the justification for some of them)
we don't have a confident kicker at 10 either from hand or at goal (Neither Ferg nor Max) - Kicks for touch improved when Angus took over at FB.
That bloody awful Max moment (sorry).
The usual pain about getting there & back via various trains & tubes.
The occasional really obnoxious Quins supporter shouting abuse in your earhole.

I won't be going back there next time.

+++1 When Segun scored (we were in the South stand with plenty of abuse) it was a tumbleweed moment of some magnitude!

Pila ovata optima est

Quote:

MidlandsSarrie
Re Social media. Does it genuinely generate new bums on seats? Attendences would suggest not. Does it generate off field income? If not, just stick ti clips of match highlights and details of booking seats etc.
I don’t mind the Original Club stuff providing it generates income, but I don’t see a lot of evidence of it

No evidence of it at all , as attendances are very much down

The current social media advert on the Newcastle game for next week says ‘last remaining tickets’ but when you click through the seat map shows half the ground available

I think a lot of the social media stuff is fine and does a good job of getting people talking. I saw Tigers post a video of their fans walking over a Saints flag, I don’t think that caused any negativity or outrage. Social media is never going to be a golden bullet against a cost of living crisis that continues to hammer everyone and we’re not the only team seeing reduced crowds.

Quote:

TommyKentish
I think a lot of the social media stuff is fine and does a good job of getting people talking. I saw Tigers post a video of their fans walking over a Saints flag, I don’t think that caused any negativity or outrage. Social media is never going to be a golden bullet against a cost of living crisis that continues to hammer everyone and we’re not the only team seeing reduced crowds.

Agree. The social media stuff is about getting attention and the digital team is doing their job in that regard. Previous strategies haven't worked so we have to try something different, even though it is a losing battle imo with the economy where it is.

What isn't needed is stuff like the Venter nonsense which does nothing but engender negativity and play in to the idea that we think rules don't apply.

Quote:

The Bard
... we really missed Sione running straight

I thought we might but tbh watching live it felt like it was the speed of ball the let us down as much as anything (and I could be wrong as that was an in game impression) we had some nice direct running but it was off slow ball from Williams with defence set up. There was a ball from Martin where he takes on the line and pops to Carre on his shoulder. Nice skills and that should be a massive gainline win but Quins defence had it well covered with double-defenders it felt like. Later on moving the ball quickly both from ruck and with variation we saw the like of Tizard and Cinti finding holes against that same defence as they weren't able to adapt quickly enough.
Not sure what was going on with Williams but he really had one to forget for most of the game.

I genuinely don’t think it was speed of ruck ball as when the commentators gushed about the speed of the Quins ball they brought up the stats and Sarries was actually quicker!
I just think we are a bit predictable and that Quins had a game plan to double tackle the likes of Carre and Martin and they were considerably more up for the fight than most of our forwards. I know others criticise Theo but I like him as he always gives it his best effort, as has Maro this season. Simply not true for some of the others.

Yes I really felt they should’ve kept Theo on and stuck him in the backrow. He was carrying like a beast again.

Quote:

TommyKentish
Yes I really felt they should’ve kept Theo on and stuck him in the backrow. He was carrying like a beast again.

I don’t think we can play him at hooker anymore, he’s throwing has been pretty bad for a few seasons now

Quote:

ComeOnSarries
I genuinely don’t think it was speed of ruck ball as when the commentators gushed about the speed of the Quins ball they brought up the stats and Sarries was actually quicker!

You're probably right. I remember they were both sub 4 seconds. It just didn't feel matched by what I was watching which was Williams doing lots of looking up from the base but not passing away. Could just be a wrong or maybe he didn't feel he was being given the options to hit.

Quote:

Stumpy7780

Quote:

TommyKentish
Yes I really felt they should’ve kept Theo on and stuck him in the backrow. He was carrying like a beast again.

I don’t think we can play him at hooker anymore, he’s throwing has been pretty bad for a few seasons now

He missed 2 I think and the wind was pretty bad. He always provides more than any mistakes he makes. Take a look at the replay of the early charge, 3 defenders tried to tackle him, he took contact and bounced off and gained more yardage. He was also part of a dominant front row. I certainly have no problem with him in back row, but he imho is unfairly treated by some on this site. He is one of the few who seems up for it and gets over the gain line, the fact sometimes his back row can’t keep up is not down to him. He is the future and we need to start backing him as our no. 1 hooker. Also remember we thought he would be out for a while, he was in a boot 2 weeks ago, glad he’s back. Also unfairly treated by England, not sure what Cowen-D has done to deserve his place over him - other than against us Sale have been one-dimensional.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2026:10:26:18:08:22 by Strangelove.

Quote:

Sarrov

Quote:

TommyKentish
I think a lot of the social media stuff is fine and does a good job of getting people talking. I saw Tigers post a video of their fans walking over a Saints flag, I don’t think that caused any negativity or outrage. Social media is never going to be a golden bullet against a cost of living crisis that continues to hammer everyone and we’re not the only team seeing reduced crowds.

Agree. The social media stuff is about getting attention and the digital team is doing their job in that regard. Previous strategies haven't worked so we have to try something different, even though it is a losing battle imo with the economy where it is.

What isn't needed is stuff like the Venter nonsense which does nothing but engender negativity and play in to the idea that we think rules don't apply.

Genuinely not trying to cause an argument but want to say I disagree. Having been a season ticket holder for many years, and just exhausted with trying to put the nuance of the salary cap debate to people who couldn’t give a damn, I feel the whole social media thing feels like the Club is taking a direction that it’s difficult to follow. It’s not pleasant going to other grounds, and we just don’t seem to do anything to try to make ourselves more likeable. Quite the opposite. I can’t help getting a bit fed up with it all.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2026:10:26:18:09:57 by Simitch.

Quote:

Simitch

Quote:

Sarrov

Quote:

TommyKentish
I think a lot of the social media stuff is fine and does a good job of getting people talking. I saw Tigers post a video of their fans walking over a Saints flag, I don’t think that caused any negativity or outrage. Social media is never going to be a golden bullet against a cost of living crisis that continues to hammer everyone and we’re not the only team seeing reduced crowds.

Agree. The social media stuff is about getting attention and the digital team is doing their job in that regard. Previous strategies haven't worked so we have to try something different, even though it is a losing battle imo with the economy where it is.

What isn't needed is stuff like the Venter nonsense which does nothing but engender negativity and play in to the idea that we think rules don't apply.

Genuinely not trying to cause an argument but want to say I disagree. Having been a season ticket holder for many years, and just exhausted with trying to put the nuance of the salary cap debate to people who couldn’t give a damn, I feel the whole social media thing feels like the Club is taking a direction that it’s difficult to follow. It’s not pleasant going to other grounds, and we just don’t seem to do anything to try to make ourselves more likeable. Quite the opposite. I can’t help getting a bit fed up with it all.

That is totally fair enough and I completely see where you are coming from. I also share your frustrations around the salary cap which fans and media alike seem to have no actual understanding of.

I am not a particular fan of the bad boys angle we are going for but I can appreciate that the club feel like they need to try something different.

Realistically the best way to get bums on seats is to start winning again and to make it affordable for families.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2026:10:26:18:16:03 by Sarrov.

Quote:

Simitch

Quote:

Sarrov

Quote:

TommyKentish
I think a lot of the social media stuff is fine and does a good job of getting people talking. I saw Tigers post a video of their fans walking over a Saints flag, I don’t think that caused any negativity or outrage. Social media is never going to be a golden bullet against a cost of living crisis that continues to hammer everyone and we’re not the only team seeing reduced crowds.

Agree. The social media stuff is about getting attention and the digital team is doing their job in that regard. Previous strategies haven't worked so we have to try something different, even though it is a losing battle imo with the economy where it is.

What isn't needed is stuff like the Venter nonsense which does nothing but engender negativity and play in to the idea that we think rules don't apply.

Genuinely not trying to cause an argument but want to say I disagree. Having been a season ticket holder for many years, and just exhausted with trying to put the nuance of the salary cap debate to people who couldn’t give a damn, I feel the whole social media thing feels like the Club is taking a direction that it’s difficult to follow. It’s not pleasant going to other grounds, and we just don’t seem to do anything to try to make ourselves more likeable. Quite the opposite. I can’t help getting a bit fed up with it all.

Agree completely, and as someone stated earlier it lacks humility, which is supposed to be one our foundational values. I think it would be acceptable to some if we could back up the club’s social media output with performances on the pitch, but it just makes us look rather stupid in that respect. I hope the coaches are not too proud to admit rotation isn’t working and the non-playing leaders also admit that perhaps the current off-field prickly approach is something that should be left way in the past. We will see.

Quote:

Sarrov
Realistically the best way to get bums on seats is to start winning again and to make it affordable for families.

Start playing some half decent rugby would help too.